GWR Junction Track Planning

[The Stationmaster]

24 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Which would get a vote from me, if not least for its unusual inclined-shunting of the branch line coaches (shunted by gravity without an engine). With a bay platform for the branch line (bottom right).

 

 

The problem of course is modelling the gavity shunting.  A possible answer might be to use DCC and motorised caching stock but I can't see any other sensible way of doing it.  Don't forget the coaching stock was dropped back down into the platform in a controlled manner,; described in the Appendix entry in respect of the similar move at Yelverton 'as 'very cautiously' (where it was also permitted with Mixed Trains).

 

Interestingly at Maiden Newton the trainshed over part of the branch bay had long gone by the final years of the branch but the main uprights, dule shortened, still survived as part of a fence.  And certain of those uprights still bore some painted marks which the Guards used to use to help them stop in the right place because they obviously couldn't see the stop block.  The marks outlived the closure of the branch (and I placed the wreath on theh front of the last passenger train from Maiden newton to Bridport).

[Happy Hippo]

2 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Incidentally, what is this location? (It feels Welsh.)

 

It's probably Hirwain on the old VoN line facing towards Gelli Tarw Junction. 6416 is just departing for Merthyr.

 

(There was an auto train service between Merthyr and Hirwain, on which 6416 had been pictured elsewhere).

 

 

Edited January 4 by Happy Hippo

[Happy Hippo]

I have just checked the track diagram from the SRS for Hirwain which would appear to confirm my earlier post:

 

[Miss Prism]

Thanks, confirmed as Hirwaun.

[philip-griffiths]

10 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

It's probably Hirwain on the old VoN line facing towards Gelli Tarw Junction. 6416 is just departing for Merthyr.

 

(There was an auto train service between Merthyr and Hirwain, on which 6416 had been pictured elsewhere).

 

 

 

Hirwaun is the correct spelling and yes, this is looking down the valley towards the triple junction with the line to Merthyr, the line to Quaker's Yard, and the Cwmaman mineral branch.   Like someone commented earlier on, you have the junction 'off scene'....

 

BTW, @Miss Prism I agree, Pontralis come to mind, and perfect for those Kings and Castles....  

 

regards

[KeithMacdonald]

49 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Thanks, confirmed as Hirwaun.

 

Plus a couple of views from further down the platform.

 

6433 - with autocoach?

 

 

9712 - with coal?

 

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Incidentally, what is this location? (It feels Welsh.)

 

I\ll have a  tenner on Hirwaun on the Vale of Neath, presumably with a train for Merthyr departing

[Happy Hippo]

1 hour ago, philip-griffiths said:

 

Hirwaun is the correct spelling and yes, this is looking down the valley towards the triple junction with the line to Merthyr, the line to Quaker's Yard, and the Cwmaman mineral branch.   Like someone commented earlier on, you have the junction 'off scene'....

 

BTW, @Miss Prism I agree, Pontralis come to mind, and perfect for those Kings and Castles....  

 

regards

I'm going to get a right slapping over that spelling mistake, and I was there last month as well!

 

Quite a few of my acquaintances from the area call it Erwin (as in Rommel)🤣.

48 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Plus a couple of views from further down the platform.

 

6433 - with autocoach?

 

9712 - with coal?

 

Looking at the window spacings I suspect it's an A44 auto coach, they used both these and the earlier 'traditional' three windowed auto coaches* on the Merthyr/Hirwaun shuttles.

 

*I have no idea what particular types they were.

 

9712, apart from some water spillage down the tanks looks remarkably clean.

Edited January 4 by Happy Hippo

[Ian Hargrave]

Referring to the pronunciation of the place name, in my days as a young resident of the Aberdare Valley…long before the resurrection of the Welsh language…..we referred to it  constantly as “Urwinn”. To this day,I have a constant battle with myself to refrain from calling it thus in the presence of my Taffia relatives.Valleys speech was ever thus..essentially lazy. Though with the passage of time,it’s been tidied up a bit.”Oright butt ? “ ( which roughly translates as ..” Is that ok my friend ? “ .

 

Somewhere out there ,someone will have a photo of Hirwaun station’s finest hour. The Royal Train conveying our newly crowned HM Queen & Prince Phillip double headed by Castles 5080 & ? Taken 1954. The Cwmaman branch ,long disused and remembered by my grandfather,ran at the back of our house in Godreaman.It was known locally as “the line” and whilst in passenger use ( for a short while in its existence) was run by GWR steam railmotors. I occasionally walked home from Grammar School that way. My late father managed the PD Brickworks lower down the Gelli Tarw at Lwydcoed. TFW have plans to extend the new Metro service from Aberdare to “Urwinn” eventually,using the old trackbed.

 

 

 

[Keegs]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Don't forget the trap point - a dummy will do - for the yard sidings.

 

The xtra siding next to the bay appears to lack any sort of road access so isn't much use for loading or unloading anything unless you can work in some road access with room to get a road vehicle along the side of the cattle dock away from the siding.   Livestock traffic. apart from various specialised flows, seem to have declined considerably by the mid 1930s but the docks themslves often survived at many stations well into the 1960s

 

The two splitting ('junction') signals would be as described by Miss P but one needs a bit of elaboration.  The one at the facing point coming in from the branch would be a three doll signal - one arm reading to the Down Main, a second doll and arm reading to the bay, and a third doll and (short) arm reading to the goods yard.

 

 

Incidentally Maiden Newton has already been mentioned, along with similar arrangements at yelverton and Wellington (Salop)

 

Thanks once again Mike, decided to omit the extra siding for now and added the trap, hopefully I've interpreted that signal placement somewhat correctly!:

 

[The Stationmaster]

32 minutes ago, Keegs said:

 

Thanks once again Mike, decided to omit the extra siding for now and added the trap, hopefully I've interpreted that signal placement somewhat correctly!:

 

Move the trap a bit further away from the turnout to teh bay and move the signal out of the yard to the toe of the trap.  

 

The two doll bracket is in the wrong place and facing the wrong way. It shoiuld be at the toe of the point leading from the branch to the Up Main.  You just need an ordinary straight post signal where you have drawn that bracket.  

 

You need to adda three doll bracket at the  toe of the point in the branch reading towards the left,   I.e. opposite that straight post signal with a single arm which is reading in the wrong direction and shouldn't be there at all

Edited January 4 by The Stationmaster

[Miss Prism]

[KeithMacdonald]

2 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Somewhere out there ,someone will have a photo of Hirwaun station’s finest hour. The Royal Train conveying our newly crowned HM Queen & Prince Phillip double headed by Castles 5080 & ? Taken 1954.

 

Well yes ... but we can't see the train cos of all the toffs standing in the way?

 

 

https://website.hirwaunhistorical.org.uk/history/royal-visits/

 

 

[KeithMacdonald]

A note for anyone tempted to model Hirwaun Station. You might want a sharp cut-off scenic break at one end of the station. Otherwise you have an elephant in the corner. Otherwise known as the Gloucester Railway Wagon Works. I've no idea why it's there and not back at home in Gloucester.

 

[philip-griffiths]

3 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

I'm going to get a right slapping over that spelling mistake, and I was there last month as well

did you sample the Whisky?  It’s needed to cope with the roadworks for the A465….

[philip-griffiths]

5 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

A note for anyone tempted to model Hirwaun Station. You might want a sharp cut-off scenic break at one end of the station. Otherwise you have an elephant in the corner. Otherwise known as the Gloucester Railway Wagon Works. I've no idea why it's there and not back at home in Gloucester.

 

Have you seen pictures of the wagon works? It was busy.  Something called a coalfield. 
 

 

[philip-griffiths]

Hello Keegs. 
 

Your signalling is getting there with Mike and Miss Prism’s help.  There are some good resources in signalling, books by Bob Essery are very useful especially on typical passenger and freight workings. I know you stand upside down, but may be worth considering seeing if you can source them down under. 😀

 

you’d need some ground signals. I’d use them out of the yard at the catch point and from the down platform line for a reserve into the loop, the up line or into the lay-by. 
 

anither ground signal for working from the up to the down and even a ground signal from the loop to the down as the signal in Miss Prism’s diagram (the 3 post bracket) would really be for a movement from the loop to the down and then past the down starter. If shunting with in the station precinct you would not be pulling off the bracket signal as that will only be released with the down starter. 
 

(Ducks from the fags ends that Miss Prsim will throw towards me as I apply LNWR practice to a GWR situation… ) 

 

regards. 

[Ian Hargrave]

15 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Well yes ... but we can't see the train cos of all the toffs standing in the way?

 

 

https://website.hirwaunhistorical.org.uk/history/royal-visits/

 

 

I remember that day. A very young HM toured the Cynon Valley in an open top car. And a very young 11 year old was one of thousands lining the streets  who greeted her royal 🇬🇧 progress .I remember my mother ( then Aberaman’s District Nurse ) remarking on how much make up she wore. We were not introduced 👎. The Royal Train was waiting at Hirwaun. Canton supplied the much bulled up motive power,according to TI published later.

 

 

 

[JimC]

3 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 Otherwise known as the Gloucester Railway Wagon Works. I've no idea why it's there and not back at home in Gloucester.

Just a local repair shop, not the main factory. I understand there were six of these in Wales alone (source here: http://www.welshcoalmines.co.uk/forum/read.php?4,89683,89686 ). Which gives you an idea how big a business wagon repair was!

[Compound2632]

19 hours ago, Keegs said:

It's incredibly frustrating not being in the UK, the cost to get the diagrams I want is £24 on a CD which then has to be shipped halfway around the world(at what cost!) when it could quite easily be available for  download from their website!

 

There is a lot of discussion among the various societies about how best to make such information available and a general recognition that CD or other physical format is an outmoded method of distribution. I think you should not feel inhibited about providing feedback on this to the SLS; I think they would appreciate it, or at least it would inform their committee discussions.

[Happy Hippo]

3 hours ago, philip-griffiths said:

did you sample the Whisky?  It’s needed to cope with the roadworks for the A465….

I love Penderyn 

[Flying Pig]

5 hours ago, Keegs said:

 

Thanks once again Mike, decided to omit the extra siding for now and added the trap, hopefully I've interpreted that signal placement somewhat correctly!:

 

 

The goods yard seems cramped by its situation between the station approach and  the baseboard edge.  This results in rather short sidings and a lead (highlighted below) that doesn't seem to serve any purpose. Could you move the station building to other platform to give the goods yard more room?

 

 

[melmerby]

Removed

Duplicating another post

Edited January 4 by melmerby

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

The relative elevation of the arms is an interesting point here although the number of dolls and arms is spoton.  

 

Certainly on the two doll signal the normal arrangement would have been for teh arm reading to the branch to be higher than that reading through the crossover because the branch is the principal route.

 

More debatav ble is the situation on the three doll signalwhere it is somewhat more debatable if the route reading to the Main Line is more important than the route leading to the bay.  In fact over the years it seemed that even the GWR couldn't get a consistent answer to that one and I think it very often came down to what the local S&T Dept Inspector ordered from Reading (a sketch was required on the order form).

 

For example, and just to make it ebven more confusing, at one period a shorter arm was used on running line splitting signals for an arm reading to a bay - but that also appears (from photos) not to have been applied consistently and was in any event  seemingly disconyinued in  the late 1930s - except where someone ordered a new signals replicating the old one.   All part of life's very rich pageant when it comes to GWR signals

 

18 hours ago, philip-griffiths said:

Hello Keegs. 
 

Your signalling is getting there with Mike and Miss Prism’s help.  There are some good resources in signalling, books by Bob Essery are very useful especially on typical passenger and freight workings. I know you stand upside down, but may be worth considering seeing if you can source them down under. 😀

 

you’d need some ground signals. I’d use them out of the yard at the catch point and from the down platform line for a reserve into the loop, the up line or into the lay-by. 
 

anither ground signal for working from the up to the down and even a ground signal from the loop to the down as the signal in Miss Prism’s diagram (the 3 post bracket) would really be for a movement from the loop to the down and then past the down starter. If shunting with in the station precinct you would not be pulling off the bracket signal as that will only be released with the down starter. 
 

(Ducks from the fags ends that Miss Prsim will throw towards me as I apply LNWR practice to a GWR situation… ) 

 

regards. 

Right let's sort it out properly now.  The first thing to understand s that a running signal can quite legitimately be cleared for a shunting movement provided the line between it and the next stop signal to which it reads is clear; no need for some sort shunting signals to duplicate what a running signal can do.    

 

Although I forget the period being modelled what I'll list below is suitable for the 1930s rightto the 1960s assuming one late survivor for the latter date.  And in reality just as good fr the 1920s  although one ground disc could be incorrect for then (the one from the goods yard).  IF you changed the exit signal from te refuge siding toa ground disc the signalling would be suitable through to the 1980s/'90s although by then rationalisation would have  well and truly bitten.

 

Running line straight post stop signals - visible part of the layout -

Up Main

a. One at the platform end, short post for sighting under the bridge,

b. (If you're doing the full Monty and there's sufficient length to ab void things looking too cowded)  One protecting the trailing connection from the branch.

c. One at extreme right of the scenicked area

Down Main

a. (Possibly) One at the extreme f right of the scenicked area.

b. One immediately protecting the trailing connection from the refuge siding and the trailing crossover

c. (maybe - if it is visible) One on a short post beyond the overbridge.

 

Branch Line

a.  Starting Signal from the bay platform,

b.  The 3 arm bracket,

c. The 2 arm bracket.

d. One ptrotecting the trailing point at the connection to the Main Line for trains approaching on the branch

e.  (If there's room without things looking over done) One acting as an Advanced Statrting Signal for trains continuing along the branch to 'off scene)

 

Refuge Siding Exit Signal.  Straight post, 3 foot arm with a 'good or siding' ring on it (anachronistic by the 1960s but still some around)

 

Ground disc signals.

For simplicity I'll assume all single disc so perfectly suitable for teh whole pf the period I mentioned

Down Main

a.  At the toe of the trailing point leading towards the Up Main and branch, showing a white light when at danger

b. At the toe of the point leading to the Refuge Siding, showing a red light whenn at danger

 

Up Main

a.  At the toe of the slip connection from the Up Main to the Down Main in the connection from the branch to the Down Main, showing a red light when at danger.

b. At the. toe of the trailing connection from the Up Main connection to the branch, showing a white light when at danger.

 

Goods Yard

one protecting the trap point

 

This level of signalling will, if you include Up Main stop signal b, allow you to run rounds a sort raft of vehicles on the Up Main Line.  If you don't incude Up Main stop sgnal b you might still have room to run round on the branch loop depending on the distance between the towo points.  Note that iina full set of eunning line stop signals the Western would have provided Up Main stop signal b.

[Miss Prism]

My choice of signal shapes is entirely a personal one. The up junction one, with the two arms at the same height, is taken from Bodmin. The 3-doll signal is a bit over the top, and I think I'd be inclined to have a stencil-type indicator, e.g. https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbg670a.htm, or maybe something exotic like the ones at Fishguard.