So what have I done to my Z21 black and/or loco and decoder, and how can I undo it?

[flockandroll]

I am new to DCC, this could be my second newbie error. I wanted to change the loco address from the default 3' to the actual (builder's) number of the loco, 3716.

Watching a couple of YouTube videos, I went into the vehicles part of the phone app, added the loco and picture, changed its number to 3716. But now in steering, no function keys are displayed, just speed and direction and a picture, on the right. The left side of the screen where the functions used to be displayed is now blank.

So I thought,  "Oh, I need to reprogram the decoder on the program track. So switch over the connector on the back of the Z21, put the loco back on the track, read CV1 and it is set to 3. So I change it, I wanted 3716, but I settle for 37 for now, as 3716 is a long address, and sticking to a short address is easier for now. Reread the CV, and yes, CV1 is now 37.

Back to vehicles, basic information and change loco address fro 3716 to 37.

Loco off track. Change over green plug to main track loco back on track. Select loco in steering, still no function keys visible.   

I can control speed and direction, but no functions (that is to say, firebox flicker and sounds). I have added loco to the WLANmaus, and I can control the speed and direction only. Before I started changing the address, I could control sounds and turn firebox flicker on and off. The loco is a Rapido Hunslet 16in Alex with factory fitted sound decoder.

 

How can I get the functions back please?

[flockandroll]

Taking the Hunslet off the track, and putting a Planet Industrials Victory on, using the app for loco 3, everything is fine for that loco. So it is something I have (or have not done) with the Hunslet.

[Kaput]

You need to add the functions yourself on the functions tab of the vehicles page.

 

The vehicles page of the Z21 app is just a database of your locos

[jaym481]

If you added the functions under one address they won't transfer to the new address when you change it. You have to manually add them again. It's one aspect of the Z21 that I wish could be managed better.

[flockandroll]

So I should explore how to change to long locomotive addresses before I do this, so I only have to do it once.

Thanks

[jpendle]

Hi,

 

You haven't set a long address of 3716, you've set a short address of 37, on your first screen it shows #37 and on the second screen shot it shows address 37.

 

A long address would need CV's 17 & 18 set to 37 and 16 plus bit 5 in CV 29 should be set to 1.

 

Now, once you've successfully setup a loco in the Z21 app and got all it's function buttons sorted, then if you have a second loco with a different number you can just copy the first one in the app and then modify the address and name of the copied loco. That WILL copy over all of the function buttons.

 

I haven't tried to set long addresses with my Z21 as I run diesels (5 digit numbers) and I find it's just as easy to select from a picture and desription, as it is from the loco numbers (most of which I can't see from a distance anyway).

 

BTW I thought that if you specified a long address in the Z21 app it would automatically modify CV29, but I could be wrong.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[Riddles]

There is absolutely no need at all to mess with CVs 17 and 18. The Z21 app does all the calculations itself when you simply ask it to change the address. 

[Nigelcliffe]

On 03/01/2024 at 17:44, flockandroll said:

So I should explore how to change to long locomotive addresses before I do this, so I only have to do it once.

Thanks

 

38 minutes ago, Riddles said:

There is absolutely no need at all to mess with CVs 17 and 18. The Z21 app does all the calculations itself when you simply ask it to change the address. 

 

As Riddles says -   there is no messing with complicated CVs.     The Z21 app will do all the Long Address calculations when setting the address.     (As will just about any DCC system currently available).  

 

 

[Gray69]

On 03/01/2024 at 13:41, flockandroll said:

I am new to DCC, this could be my second newbie error. I wanted to change the loco address from the default 3' to the actual (builder's) number of the loco, 3716.

Watching a couple of YouTube videos, I went into the vehicles part of the phone app, added the loco and picture, changed its number to 3716. But now in steering, no function keys are displayed, just speed and direction and a picture, on the right. The left side of the screen where the functions used to be displayed is now blank.

So I thought,  "Oh, I need to reprogram the decoder on the program track. So switch over the connector on the back of the Z21, put the loco back on the track, read CV1 and it is set to 3. So I change it, I wanted 3716, but I settle for 37 for now, as 3716 is a long address, and sticking to a short address is easier for now. Reread the CV, and yes, CV1 is now 37.

Back to vehicles, basic information and change loco address fro 3716 to 37.

Loco off track. Change over green plug to main track loco back on track. Select loco in steering, still no function keys visible.   

I can control speed and direction, but no functions (that is to say, firebox flicker and sounds). I have added loco to the WLANmaus, and I can control the speed and direction only. Before I started changing the address, I could control sounds and turn firebox flicker on and off. The loco is a Rapido Hunslet 16in Alex with factory fitted sound decoder.

 

How can I get the functions back please?

 

 

 

As this question threw up a couple of queries in my mind, I thought I would look at my settings. I then got really confused over what CV1 shows.

I always change a loco CV with the '# Program address' setting in the CV programming section of the Z21 app. I always use a long address as I find it easier. Checking CV1 on a loco that had a long address showed a result of 3. After having a play with the address, it appears to me that CV1 only shows the correct address if you use a short address. If you then change your short address to a long address, CV1 seems to read whatever the last short address was. Hopefully an expert will come along soon an explain this.

 

Using short or long address doesn't really seem to matter, just use an address that you will remember.

 

When you setup a loco in the WLANmaus with an address of say 3716, when you operate the controls, it will just send the command to any loco with that address. The functions are not stored on the WLANmaus, so when you press a function key, all it does is send the signal to the decoder to operate that function.

 

 

 

On 03/01/2024 at 17:27, jaym481 said:

If you added the functions under one address they won't transfer to the new address when you change it. You have to manually add them again. It's one aspect of the Z21 that I wish could be managed better.

 

You don't need to manually add them again.

Once you have set up a loco with functions and pictures etc, If you change the address of a loco, you can simply change the 'Loco address' in the Vehicles page to whatever the new address is. It keeps all the other settings.

[Nigelcliffe]

23 minutes ago, Gray69 said:

As this question threw up a couple of queries in my mind, I thought I would look at my settings. I then got really confused over what CV1 shows.

I always change a loco CV with the '# Program address' setting in the CV programming section of the Z21 app. I always use a long address as I find it easier. Checking CV1 on a loco that had a long address showed a result of 3. After having a play with the address, it appears to me that CV1 only shows the correct address if you use a short address. If you then change your short address to a long address, CV1 seems to read whatever the last short address was. Hopefully an expert will come along soon an explain this.

 

 

1 - stop overthinking this stuff.    The Z21 sorts out the "loco address" and use that.   Stop worrying about CVs.

 

2 -  Addressing.    There are three types of address in a DCC decoder that people will typically encounter;  short address,  long address and Consist Address.    

a)   Short address.   Takes values from 1 to 127,  though some systems will only allow 1-99.    This is stored in CV1.  

b)   Long address.   Takes values from 1 to 10,239.   But the allowed values in systems varies, it might be 1-9999 or 100-9999 or 128-9983, or (pick different range of choice).  The values are stored across CV17 and CV18, using a moderately awkward calculation method (or easy method if you're good at binary maths!).  

c)   The decision inside a decoder to respond to the Long or Short address is set in CV29,  along with lots of other things also set in CV29.  

d)   If using an "Advanced Consist" (double/multiple heading method, and one of several ways of arranging double-heading), then the Consist Address is stored in CV19.  If CV19 is not zero, the Consist Address applies, and the loco responds to that, rather than its locomotive address.  Consist address is 1-127,  adding 128 to the address means the loco runs backwards (eg. two class 20's running nose-to-nose, one needs to run backwards to the other).    There are a few decoders which support long addresses in Consists, stored in a combination of CV19 and CV20, but this is a very small niche at present.   

 

3)  From the permitted addresses in various systems, there are certain loco addresses which should be avoided if wanting to move locos from one system to another.  Addresses 100-127 might be "long" or "short" depending on system, so best avoided.    Long addresses 0001-0099 are likely to confuse, so avoid those if your system allows them as long addresses.     And Long addresses above 9983 might not work on some systems.    

 

Tools for calculating CV29 and CV17/CV18 are on the webpage I wrote a dozen years ago:   https://www.2mm.org.uk/articles/cv29 calculator.htm

 

 

 

[Gray69]

1 hour ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

1 - stop overthinking this stuff.    The Z21 sorts out the "loco address" and use that.   Stop worrying about CVs.

 

2 -  Addressing.    There are three types of address in a DCC decoder that people will typically encounter;  short address,  long address and Consist Address.    

a)   Short address.   Takes values from 1 to 127,  though some systems will only allow 1-99.    This is stored in CV1.  

b)   Long address.   Takes values from 1 to 10,239.   But the allowed values in systems varies, it might be 1-9999 or 100-9999 or 128-9983, or (pick different range of choice).  The values are stored across CV17 and CV18, using a moderately awkward calculation method (or easy method if you're good at binary maths!).  

c)   The decision inside a decoder to respond to the Long or Short address is set in CV29,  along with lots of other things also set in CV29.  

d)   If using an "Advanced Consist" (double/multiple heading method, and one of several ways of arranging double-heading), then the Consist Address is stored in CV19.  If CV19 is not zero, the Consist Address applies, and the loco responds to that, rather than its locomotive address.  Consist address is 1-127,  adding 128 to the address means the loco runs backwards (eg. two class 20's running nose-to-nose, one needs to run backwards to the other).    There are a few decoders which support long addresses in Consists, stored in a combination of CV19 and CV20, but this is a very small niche at present.   

 

3)  From the permitted addresses in various systems, there are certain loco addresses which should be avoided if wanting to move locos from one system to another.  Addresses 100-127 might be "long" or "short" depending on system, so best avoided.    Long addresses 0001-0099 are likely to confuse, so avoid those if your system allows them as long addresses.     And Long addresses above 9983 might not work on some systems.    

 

Tools for calculating CV29 and CV17/CV18 are on the webpage I wrote a dozen years ago:   https://www.2mm.org.uk/articles/cv29 calculator.htm

 

 

 

When you are new to DCC, it can be overwhelming

In the OP, it seemed that flockandroll was initially confused by the fact that after they had programmed a long address into the decoder, then when reading CV1, they got an address of 3. This was obviously not what they were expecting. This then starts a rabbit hole of confusion into long and short addresses

If you are new to DCC, thinking CV1 will give you the loco address is an easy mistake to make.

 

I know that programming DCC can be as simple or as difficult as you make it 😀

but thank you for the explanation, as I like to be able to understand how it works

 

Edited January 5 by Gray69

[RAF96]

1 hour ago, Gray69 said:

When you are new to DCC, it can be overwhelming

In the OP, it seemed that flockandroll was initially confused by the fact that after they had programmed a long address into the decoder, then when reading CV1, they got an address of 3. This was obviously not what they were expecting. This then starts a rabbit hole of confusion into long and short addresses

If you are new to DCC, thinking CV1 will give you the loco address is an easy mistake to make.

 

I know that programming DCC can be as simple or as difficult as you make it 😀

but thank you for the explanation, as I like to be able to understand how it works

 

Confused - you will be...
If you never alter the default short address by only writing a long address then you will readback value 3 from CV1.

Similarly if you never write a long address then a conversion of the values found in CVs 17/18 (values 192/100) will give you the default long address which oddly is 100.

[flockandroll]

3 hours ago, Gray69 said:

When you are new to DCC, it can be overwhelming

 

2 hours ago, RAF96 said:

Confused - you will be...

 

Indeed!

 

So I have one loco that used to be CV1 set to 3, but I changed it to 37,

two locomotives that have CV1 set to 3, and a fourth one that I expect also has CV1 set as 3.

 

Having one of these CV1 = 3 locomotives on the track, I can control it with the Z21 app using the pre-installed loco 3

 

(see, I previously changed the name to Alex)

 

So, one question is, if I put two locomotives on the track each with CV1 = 3 can I control them independently, or will they both respond ? I would have said that they will both respond, but now I am not so sure...

 

(Should I re-title this thread as "Understanding and using Z21 black and loco addresses - a basic introduction"?)

 

 

Edited January 5 by flockandroll
typo

[Nigelcliffe]

11 minutes ago, flockandroll said:

 

So I have one loco that used to be CV1 set to 3, but I changed it to 37,

two locomotives that have CV1 set to 3, and a fourth one that I expect also has CV1 set as 3.

 

Having one of these CV1 = 3 locomotives on the track, I can control it with the Z21 app using the pre-installed loco 3

 

So, one question is, if I put two locomotives on the track each with CV1 = 3 can I control them independently, or will they both respond ? I would have said that they will both respond, but now I am not so sure...

 

 

If two (or more) locomotives have the same address, then they respond identically.   

 

By default, new decoders are set to address 3, which is why they all arrive as address 3.   
Sensible advice is to always program a new address into a new loco, and also give it a new name that makes sense to you.   

 

 

 

-  Nigel

[flockandroll]

So I have the knowledge to change CV1 to a short address, and the knowledge to rename the loco in the app. 

Not sure if it will continue to irritate me that for instance CV1 = 66 and the name is 667, 

and CV1 = 78 and the name is 7818

 

[Gray69]

2 hours ago, flockandroll said:

So I have the knowledge to change CV1 to a short address, and the knowledge to rename the loco in the app. 

Not sure if it will continue to irritate me that for instance CV1 = 66 and the name is 667, 

and CV1 = 78 and the name is 7818

 

 

It is easiest to use the '# Program address' setting in the CV programming section of the Z21 app to change the CV. With this you can choose 667 and 7818 without issues. Don't worry about CV1

[flockandroll]

2 hours ago, Gray69 said:

It is easiest to use the '# Program address' setting in the CV programming section of the Z21 app to change the CV. With this you can choose 667 and 7818 without issues. Don't worry about CV1

 

Like this...ah!

 

[flockandroll]

So going back to the locomotives that have CV1 = 3, I can do that for all of them, they will respond individually to themselves (if that makes sense?)?

[flockandroll]

So this way does actually change CV1 but "at arm's length" as it were, without using the "nuts and bolts" method of actually going into each CV as it were? And having to alter CVs to enable long addresses?

[RAF96]

To put it in Noddy terms - the controller shouts out number 3 move it. All number 3s will move. The controller shouts out 667 put your lights on and only 667 reacts. Unless you are running say a power car and dummy there is no need to have decoders with the same address, nor is there any need to have a decoder on address 3 after you have tested it  is working out of the box. As your controller is capable of writing any address short or long without drama I suggest you give each loco a suitable associated number

[Izzy]

12 hours ago, flockandroll said:

So going back to the locomotives that have CV1 = 3, I can do that for all of them, they will respond individually to themselves (if that makes sense?)?

 

Yes. But you must program each one individually, set its new address, otherwise they’ll all be the same …….  I.e. just one loco on the track/program track at a time if they have the same address you want to change to different ones. 
 

As said the only stock that is normally given the same address is multiple units so they act together, so 2-car DMU’s upwards. 

 

10 hours ago, flockandroll said:

So this way does actually change CV1 but "at arm's length" as it were, without using the "nuts and bolts" method of actually going into each CV as it were? And having to alter CVs to enable long addresses?

 

Yes. The system will automatically recognise whether it’s a short or long address and set the rest to suit, all you have to do is put in the number you want. Just for clarity and because this concerns computer bits and bytes, a ‘short’ one byte address is 1-128, while ‘long’ is 128-9,999 

 

Bob
 

[jamesed]

@flockandroll, firstly, congratulations on buying one of the most powerful, versatile and user friendly DCC control systems on the market. The Z21 will do everything you need it to do and, in time, you'll find it easy and intuitive to use.  However,  There's no point in owning a Porsche if you've never learnt to drive. Similarly you're going to need to read up a bit on understanding the principles of dcc before you can start to understand what CVs do, how they work and the values required to set them up. If you have a local model railway club go along and join. You'll most likely find several friendly and willing members who'll spend a bit of time explaining it all to you. 

 

Once you have a good basic level of understanding of how dcc works, go onto Youtube and watch some of the many videos which will show you how to use your Z21. There are some really helpful videos which will help you see what to do. Setting up your layout (no need to use the pre-installed demo layout), adding vehicles (locomotives), programming CVs, understanding the difference between program track and programming on main, setting up and using functions.  It's all much easier than it sounds and you'll pick it up quickly.  Just make sure you are using the right app - it's the one that has an icon button with a completely black background with Z21 in white (see image below).

 

 

With a Z21, it really doesn't matter what 'address' you set for your locos because, unlike with most other controllers, you are never goiing to need to enter that number again once you've set it up (if you are using the app to drive trains). You use your phone or tablet to take a photo of your loco, upload that into the Z21, add a typed in descriptive name (or the loco cab number for example) into the  app and from then on you identify and select your locos from the visual image and name.  For simplicity I suggest you start at address 11 (cv1 value) and work upwards from there when allocating a short address to your locos.  Don't worry about long addresses for now, you can move on to that in the future should you need to. 

Edited January 6 by jamesed

[jpendle]

19 hours ago, flockandroll said:

So going back to the locomotives that have CV1 = 3, I can do that for all of them, they will respond individually to themselves (if that makes sense?)?

Once you have programmed a long address in a loco decoder then the value in CV1 is irrelevant, it doesn't matter if it's 3 or 33, that loco will only respond to it's long address.

 

And, as others have said, in the Z21 app you don't select locos by typing in an address you scroll through the list of pictures/ descriptions and select that way.

 

e.g. when I want to select CL68 Defiant on my layout, I scroll the list to the DRS section and then select the loco by it's picture and it's description/name.

 

By default in the app locos are sorted by the order in which they are added to the list, but you can move them around to make it easier to find them.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[flockandroll]

Feeling a bit more confident with it now. Thanks all