GWR broad gauge in South London

[roythebus1]

I'm not particularly interested in GW broad gauge, but there's been a bit of discussion on one of the other threads on here on a question of BR small goods yards in London. This somehow mentioned GW Broad Gauge..

 

I know the West London Railway was mixed gauge as it was jointly owned by various companies and the track spacings were to accommodate BG trains. A search of NLS for 25 inch to the mile maps of the area threw up some definite answers but still leave some unanswered! 

 

The Metropolitan Railway was built to dual gauge and operated by the GWR for a short period using BG trains until the Met had enough of its own stock to run the service. When the Hammersmith & City was opened that too was built to dual gauge as far as Hammersmith. The stonework in the current Hammersmith H&S station says Metropolitan and Great Western Railway. The spur from Latimer Road onto the West London towards Addison Road was dual gauge as was the West London Railway. The dual gauge continued south of the river to Latchmere Junction and the labyrinth of lines in the area around Clapham Junction and Stewarts Lane. There the WLL splits 3 ways, right to the "Windsor" side of Clapham Junction. The broad gauge extended a short way round the corner and according to NLS maps stopped by the first signal beyond the junction. 

 

Going straight on from Latchmere there's another double junction. the right branches off under the LSWR main line and round to the "Brighton" side of Clapham Junction to where the current platforms 16 and 17 are. Photos show those lines were dual gauge, but here is the mystery. The pics show the broad gauge stopping just beyond the platform end. Unfortunately the 25" NLS map ends at the overbridge! Just beyond that bridge  is "New Wandsworth Station" with a small goods yard at the top of the cutting which on later maps was marked as a GW goods depot. The later25" maps don't go back to the 1870s at the moment, so whether the goods yard was BG is not known.

 

The "other route" from south of Latchmere curves round under the LBSCR to Victoria to join the south side of the LCDR lines into Victoria. There's been a photo published fairly recently that shows a GWR BG train in Victoria on the LCDR side. It would appear that only 2 platforms were built dual gauge. Again the map stops just short of the overall roof so we can't see the track plan under the roof! Again, BG services didn't last too long into Victoria. The GW did however run standard gauge service from Paddington to Crystal Palace for a period. Was that ever a BG service? I'd say probably not, but until the adjoining 25" to the mile maps are found or if indeed they exist I wouldn't like to say

 

Also in the Stewarts Lane area were a couple of short dual gauge tracks, again disappearing off the edge of the map! Here's the link to the NLS map:  https://maps.nls.uk/view/103313105

[Nearholmer]

I gave up on this topic at about the same position you’ve got to, but my surmise is that the BG in the Stew Lane area went to a precursor of that South Lambeth Goods Depot.

 

I’m 99.97856% sure that the Crystal Palace services from Paddington were SG though.

[roythebus1]

Have a look at the NLS map, you'll see the broad gauge lines are marked by 3 rails on the 25" to the mile map of 1868. I'd reckon the furthest the BG got towards CP was New Wandsworth goods depot at the top of the bank. Until NLS find the adjacent sheets, I doubt we'll know the answer. But then the adjacent area is on the border with Surrey and London, so may not have been mapped at 25" there wasn't much to map.

 

But having said that, I bumped into a Waterloo driver in the model shop at Kings Cross one day,  he'd just been to the British Museum with an old map his grandfather had left him. It was IIRC a 1828 Bartholomews coloured map of south west London. He said it's a rarity, the BM had never seen that edition in colour. He said there would be no railways on it either. I proved him wrong as it showed the Surrey Iron Railway on it. That made his day.

 

 

Edited January 7 by roythebus1

[The Stationmaster]

According to  Thomas Peacock in 'GW London Suburban Services'. brad gauge rains over the Wesy London line ceased 'by October 1864 with only one broad gauge trans running to/frm Victoria in the Summer of that year.  GWR services to Victoria had originally commenced as narrow (aka 'standard)  gauge trains in March 1863 and broad gauge trans were providing three out of the 10 daily GWR trains to Victoria from April that year.

 

The GWR was of course, with the LCDR, a joint lessee of their side of the station at Victoria and the GWR remained a lessee, latterly jointly with the SR . until nationalisation.

 

According to McDermtt the section from Chelsea Bridge Jcn to Longhedge Jcn, along with the West London Line,  was converted from Mixed Gauge to Narrow Gauge in November 1875.  The similar conversion of the Hammersmith a & City had been completed back in 1869 with the section from Latimer Road Jcn to Uxbridge r road Jcn being the last to go.

[roythebus1]

Interesting stuff there Mike. This help date a couple of "undated" photos that have been published on here and other social media recently, one of a BG train at Victoria, another at Hammersmith and the BG lines at Clapham Junction. 

 

I was born in Parsons Green within the sound of the District Line station and I had a cousin who lived round the back of the old Fulham & Chelsea Station. We'd sit there for what seemed ages waiting to see a train go by but rarely saw one! I went to grammar school in Battersea hence my interest in the West London Line. I recently found my paternal grandfather worked as a carter in the Whiteleys furniture depository by the WLL where the District Line branches off.  Pity I didn't really take more of an interest at that young age.

[Forward!]

On 06/01/2024 at 18:30, roythebus1 said:

Going straight on from Latchmere there's another double junction. the right branches off under the LSWR main line and round to the "Brighton" side of Clapham Junction to where the current platforms 16 and 17 are. Photos show those lines were dual gauge, but here is the mystery. The pics show the broad gauge stopping just beyond the platform end. Unfortunately the 25" NLS map ends at the overbridge!

 

The 1:1056 Town Plan series 1868 (survey date 1866) shows the dual gauge lines ending just beyond the platform ends south of Clapham Junction Station. It does not carry on to New Wandsworth. https://maps.nls.uk/view/229950446

 

As to the layout of the dual Gauge at Victoria, here's the sheet you need.

 

https://maps.nls.uk/view/103313042 (OS 1st edition 25'' 1876 (survey date 1869)

 

Will

Edited January 8 by Forward!

[Artless Bodger]

Interesting layout at Victoria, especially the dual gauge loco and wagon turntables. Thank you for the link.

[The Stationmaster]

8 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

Interesting stuff there Mike. This help date a couple of "undated" photos that have been published on here and other social media recently, one of a BG train at Victoria, another at Hammersmith and the BG lines at Clapham Junction. 

 

I was born in Parsons Green within the sound of the District Line station and I had a cousin who lived round the back of the old Fulham & Chelsea Station. We'd sit there for what seemed ages waiting to see a train go by but rarely saw one! I went to grammar school in Battersea hence my interest in the West London Line. I recently found my paternal grandfather worked as a carter in the Whiteleys furniture depository by the WLL where the District Line branches off.  Pity I didn't really take more of an interest at that young age.

At Clapham Jcn - according to McDermott - the lines between the WLER and both the L&BSCR and the L&SWR were always Narrow Gauge from time of opening in 1863  and were never mixed gauge.  Thus the GWR service to Richmond, from Paddington, was always a standard gauge service although it too only operated for a short while

[roythebus1]

That tallies up with my understanding of it. The NSL maps are usually quite accurate. 

 

There were other services from Paddington via the WLL and LSWR Grove Road curve to Richmond and Hounslow and some that ran through from the city. Lots of odd bits, no broad gauge, and there's a few timetables from the 1880s and 1890s that have been shared on here and various FB groups.

 

Edited January 8 by roythebus1

[Forward!]

2 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

The NSL maps are usually quite accurate. 

 

The first edition OS at 1:500, 1:1056 and 1:2500 are usually fairly accurate for track configuration, but be careful you note the distinction between the survey date vs. the publication date (which can vary by as much as 5 years in some parts of the country). The later you go, the tricker it becomes, because you have to be able to identify the distinction between a new Edition and a revision of an existing edition. Hence, by the late pre-WWII period you start to get maps that are (to use an extreme, hypothetical example) a "2nd revision of the 1st edition"- i.e originally surveyed in the 1870s but revised in ,say, 1893 and again in 1919. These need to be treated with much caution as I have seen a good deal of evidence that relatively minor changes to railway track configuration are sometimes neglected in revisions. 

 

Will

[roythebus1]

Yes I noticed that with the NLS map, drawn in something like 1865 and not published until 1873.

 

Around WW2 time maps could I suppose vary by the hour depending on the actions of the other side.

 

Somewhere like Addison Road (Olympia) had a number of track alterations over the early 1900s which are not noted accurately on the big scale maps.

[keefer]

The 1866 OS Town Plan map is also available as a continuous, geo-referenced map:

View centred on Latchmere Junctions etc.

[roythebus1]

That shows the BG going towards the LSWR as far as Sheepcote Road bridge and into the LBSC side of Clapham Junction and stopping short of St.Johns road bridge as per the photo that's been posted.