Mainline 56xx rebuild advice.

[RCP]

So I’m looking for some guidance, Santa kindly brought a hilevelskit 56xx chassis and a Collett chassis, some coreless motors and I have previously acquired a set of Markits wheels for them both. The donor models are Mainline originals. I have a LocoBuilder box to ensure a properly square chassis. Which then brings us onto the models in question. Both are a bit dated so they are going to need some remedial works. This is my first chassis kit so any advice is gratefully received. I’ve got some DCC Concepts Sapphire No-Clean Flux, weller lead free solder and a 80w iron.

The 56xx I’m aiming to replicate would be either 5689 or 6690 both based at Westbury in 1934, so Lot235 from Swindon or Lot255 from Armstrong. The pieces of work I’ve identified already are as follows:

·       The safety valve looks awful. It has a huge ridge in the modelling. Is it possible to modify or buy a replacement part for this?

·       Handrails will need cutting off and replacing.

·       Lamp irons

·       Roof looks rather thick or the rain stips do at least, I presume these should be filed down?

·       No step on the side tank fronts

·       Dart for smokebox needed

·       New buffers (Collett straight type I think)

·       Coal bunker didn’t have the indent originally so I guess this will need to be modified somehow, any ideas when these two would have had the modification done?

·       Suitable DCC sound decoder. I’m open to suggestions as I haven’t bought this yet.

·       Boiler underside will need rebuilding I think as it forms part of the split chassis

·       Boiler banding?? Is it possible to redo this sensibly or is that a bridge too far?

·       Front step handrail.

·       The front step looks the wrong scale to my eye. Any ideas where I could find the correct dimensions for this?

·       Any thoughts on plunger pickups vs the alternatives.

What have I missed? I’ve included some pictures of the model in question.

I understand that the inside motion was changed on these but I think the two I’m looking at would have had the correct modifications that came with the etch.

Any tips on what temperature I should set the Iron too would be helpful as well. 280deg C?

 

[Penrhos1920]

For 1934 you’ll also need to look at the cab window shutters.  You can buy replacement buffers from Alan Gibson along with your handrail knobs and dart.

[RCP]

1 hour ago, Penrhos1920 said:

For 1934 you’ll also need to look at the cab window shutters.  You can buy replacement buffers from Alan Gibson along with your handrail knobs and dart.

acquired some handrail knobs and sprung buffers from wizard whilst got the dart from silvertay. I also have some pannier steps from silvertay which I’m wondering if they would be suitable as a replacement front step.

 

I take that the cab window shutters weren’t fitted by that point? In which case it’ll be scalping time again. 

[The Johnster]

5 hours ago, RCP said:

Roof looks rather thick or the rain stips do at least, I presume these should be filed down?

 

A weak point of this model that has unfortunately been perpetuated with the later Bachmann tooling.  The rain strips are overscale, and could be removed and replaced with a suitable gauge wire, and the distance between the bottom of the roof and the top of the cab cutout reveal is too great; in reality the cutout beading needs to nearly obscure the metal at the top of the cutout.  If you need to ditch the sliding cab shutters it's probably worth making up a new cab sidepiece.  Turned brass or lost-wax whistles would be an improvement worth the effort, as would glazing the cab windows, and drill out the whistle cord holes in the cab front.  A firebox backhead might be sourced from a Kitmaster prairie plastic kit.

 

Cab shutters were in the process of being fitted as the locos went through works in the 30s, so you'd need photographic evidence of the relevant dates to be sure.  Ditto lamp recesses in the bunker, after it was discovered that lamps mounted on the top brackets of extended bunkers could foul each other if the locos buffered up bunker to bunker.  Note that the front central bufferbeam lamp bracket on a 56xx is a design individual to that class, in order to prevent the lamp handle fouling on the step at the bottom of the smokebox.

 

It was the 56xx that started the whole cab shutter thing; ex-Rhymney Railway drivers (who to be fair took engines to some pretty exposed locations) complained that the cabs were draughty compared to the Rhymney R class that these engines were to some extent based on and which they replaced.  If you've had to stand aroud in a crosswind at the top end of Cwmbargoed in the winter for any length of time, you'll understand.  The sliding shutter arrangement was Swindon's response, and ITIACIS was specified on the outsourced 66xx batches.  It became a standard feature on Swindon tank engines thereafter, mounted inside the cab on panniers, 48xx/58xx, 517s, and Metros.  This is much easier to model, bit of Plasticard inside the cab!

[Steamport Southport]

If you are serious about modelling the 0-6-2Ts then worth getting these.

 

https://strathwood.co.uk/products/the-0-6-2-tank-papers-no1-5600-5699

 

https://strathwood.co.uk/products/the-0-6-2-tank-papers-no2-6600-6699

 

 

 

Jason

[RCP]

10 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

If you are serious about modelling the 0-6-2Ts then worth getting these.

 

https://strathwood.co.uk/products/the-0-6-2-tank-papers-no1-5600-5699

 

https://strathwood.co.uk/products/the-0-6-2-tank-papers-no2-6600-6699

 

 

 

Jason

Ordered thanks, just need to hunt down the pannier papers No1

[Barclay]

Looks like a good project. That small segment of boiler that shows forward of the tanks could perhaps be sawn off the chassis/weight block, and glued into place, with the gaps smoothed out with filler. Alternatively a piece of plasticard or brass can be shaped to the right size and installed.

 

I have never used lead-free solder, and those who have don't seem to recommend it. However temperature wise I find that to solder effectively you need to go well over the melting point. For example working with 145 and 188 solder I always use 400 degrees. 300 just doesn't cut it. It will melt the solder but joints are much harder to make. I suppose the extra temp. helps bring the workpiece up to temperature that much more quickly.

 

For the cab roof, and anything else really, making an item finer always helps. I replaced the roof on my current project because the cast white metal roof looked a little clumsy. The rain strips are very fine L-section brass, and I can't remember where I got it but Hobby Holidays sell brass in all kinds of sizes and shapes. Hard to bend to shape, but worth it for a more delicate look, at least in my opinion.

 

Edit - the safety valve on my loco is from Alan Gibson, and, checking their website, they do one for a GWR coned boiler, which might be suitable, but I'm far from an expert on these things. Brassmasters will also sell fittings from their kits and may be able to sell you one from a GWR Prairie tank that looks similar to me, but, again, not an expert!

 

Edited January 11 by Barclay

[RCP]

15 hours ago, The Johnster said:

It was the 56xx that started the whole cab shutter thing; ex-Rhymney Railway drivers (who to be fair took engines to some pretty exposed locations) complained that the cabs were draughty compared to the Rhymney R class that these engines were to some extent based on and which they replaced.  If you've had to stand aroud in a crosswind at the top end of Cwmbargoed in the winter for any length of time, you'll understand.  The sliding shutter arrangement was Swindon's response, and ITIACIS was specified on the outsourced 66xx batches.  It became a standard feature on Swindon tank engines thereafter, mounted inside the cab on panniers, 48xx/58xx, 517s, and Metros.  This is much easier to model, bit of Plasticard inside the cab!

 

This is interesting, I have  a copy of the RTCS 6 coupled GWR tanks and my reading of it was that they were fitted later, If the outsourced (I presume you mean Armstrong ones) came fitted by default then 6690 might be my best bet. Adding ATC rather than removing the sliding shutters seems much simpler...

 

15 hours ago, The Johnster said:

A weak point of this model that has unfortunately been perpetuated with the later Bachmann tooling.  The rain strips are overscale, and could be removed and replaced with a suitable gauge wire, and the distance between the bottom of the roof and the top of the cab cutout reveal is too great; in reality the cutout beading needs to nearly obscure the metal at the top of the cutout.  If you need to ditch the sliding cab shutters it's probably worth making up a new cab sidepiece.  Turned brass or lost-wax whistles would be an improvement worth the effort, as would glazing the cab windows, and drill out the whistle cord holes in the cab front.  A firebox backhead might be sourced from a Kitmaster prairie plastic kit.

 

I'll keep my eye out for a backhead, I do have a mainly trains one for the 14xx spare but that probably isn't the right type. Can you explain what you mean by cab cutout reveal?

 

I'll have a search for a suitable whistle. They both appear to be on one "tree".

[RCP]

4 hours ago, Barclay said:

I have never used lead-free solder, and those who have don't seem to recommend it. However temperature wise I find that to solder effectively you need to go well over the melting point. For example working with 145 and 188 solder I always use 400 degrees. 300 just doesn't cut it. It will melt the solder but joints are much harder to make. I suppose the extra temp. helps bring the workpiece up to temperature that much more quickly.

 

 

My approach has been turn to 11 and hope for the best. I acquired a 80w temperature controlled unit in the hope of injecting a little more science into my approach 😁

 

Out of interest what sort op tips do you use for various joints, or is it one type for everything? 

[RCP]

4 hours ago, Barclay said:

Looks like a good project. That small segment of boiler that shows forward of the tanks could perhaps be sawn off the chassis/weight block, and glued into place, with the gaps smoothed out with filler. Alternatively a piece of plasticard or brass can be shaped to the right size and installed.

 

I was thinking dental mould and some milliput, I have a requirement for some dean goods sandboxes, splashers and toolboxs should the process work for the 655/2701 pannier project. I'm a little hesitant to try it on the functional models in case I end with dental mould stuck to my dean goods..

Edited January 11 by RCP

[Barclay]

1 hour ago, RCP said:

 

My approach has been turn to 11 and hope for the best. I acquired a 80w temperature controlled unit in the hope of injecting a little more science into my approach 😁

 

Out of interest what sort op tips do you use for various joints, or is it one type for everything? 

Hi I tend to only use 1 bit - it has a flat end similar in size and shape to that of an electrical screwdriver.

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, RCP said:

 

This is interesting, I have  a copy of the RTCS 6 coupled GWR tanks and my reading of it was that they were fitted later, If the outsourced (I presume you mean Armstrong ones) came fitted by default then 6690 might be my best bet. Adding ATC rather than removing the sliding shutters seems much simpler...

 

 

I'll keep my eye out for a backhead, I do have a mainly trains one for the 14xx spare but that probably isn't the right type. Can you explain what you mean by cab cutout reveal?

 

I'll have a search for a suitable whistle. They both appear to be on one "tree".

14xx backhead will be too small, you need one for a no.2 boiler which is why I suggested the Kitmaster plastic kit.  Cab cutout reveal is me probably overexplaining;  it’s the shaped cutout in the cab side of a tank engine with a full cab for the doorway and the space for the driver to lean out.  

[Steamport Southport]

Backheads?

 

Try 247 Developments as they do them.

 

BH6 Medium Belpaire

 

http://www.247developments.co.uk/loco_detailing.html

 

For other parts look at Alan Gibson, PDK, Brassmasters, etc.

 

 

Jason

[RCP]

38 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Backheads?

 

Try 247 Developments as they do them.

 

BH6 Medium Belpaire

 

http://www.247developments.co.uk/loco_detailing.html

 

For other parts look at Alan Gibson, PDK, Brassmasters, etc.

 

 

Jason

You wouldn't happen to know if any of them are suitable for a Collett Goods? I know its a Boiler Standard No10 but no idea what sort of a backhead it would have?

[Steamport Southport]

Not got any. But I'm assuming (yes I know about assuming!)

 

Small  - 14XX, 57XX, 2251, Dean Goods, etc.

Medium - Large Prairies, Moguls, Manors, etc.

Large - The big 4-6-0s and 2-8-0s

 

Get in touch with the owner Brian as he'll know. He general answers emails pretty quickly unless he's away. He's on here as well under 247 Developments and a personal account as Mozzer Models.

 

 

 

Jason

[88D]

I’ve read somewhere that the cab doors were painted black, but I’m not certain on this. Perhaps, somebody more knowledgable can comment?

[RCP]

Can anybody tell me what this item is? Is it some form of lubricant device. What is its name?

[Steamport Southport]

I think so. Possibly for the reversing rod as there wouldn't be a great deal of access to it.

 

Here's the arrangement on the Large Prairies.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/brianews/27231776363/in/album-72157669538653672/

 

 

Jason

[Miss Prism]

3 hours ago, 88D said:

I’ve read somewhere that the cab doors were painted black, but I’m not certain on this.

 

Most preserved GWR tanks have green cab doors.

 

[Hal Nail]

On 10/01/2024 at 22:05, The Johnster said:

If you've had to stand aroud in a crosswind at the top end of Cwmbargoed in the winter for any length of time, you'll understand.

There is a very pleasant walk from Ystrad Rhondda up the side of the valley to the wind farm at the top. Now the fact there's a wind farm there probably should have warned me, but blimey it was blowing a bit!

[The Johnster]

Just imagine what it's like when it's proper

windy...  Or what it's like living in Penrhys, where the rain comes at you uphill at 10x the speed of the bus...

 

6 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Most preserved GWR tanks have green cab doors.

 

As did BR green-liveried GW tanks, but I would not like to make a definitive comment on GW liveries.  The early 1948 livery instruction was to continue with whatever practice was current at 23.59 on 31/12/47, but to brand the locos BRITISH RAILWAYS on the tank sides, which the WR interpreted as in the 1920s Egyptian Serif lettering since there was no way to use BR as a substitute for GWR.  If it's any help, photos of locos in this unlined green livery show then with green cab doors, and the GWS restoration of 4144 in the same livery also has green doors.  Of course, they may have been black on the inside.

 

There's a song about green doors, and I've got it as a earworm now...

Edited January 12 by The Johnster

[Miss Prism]

12 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

and the GWS restoration of 4144 in the same livery also has green doors.

 

 

[The Johnster]

Oh b*gger.  That's tonight's job sorted out then, paint 4144's doors black!

[Miss Prism]

It's the preserved large prairies that show the most evidence of black doors. I really don't know if it is correct. Accurascale is currently showing black doors on its panniers. Must be flavour of the month...

 

[Steamport Southport]

Most of mine have black doors. As they should seeing as they are mostly black.... 

 

 👀

 

 

Seriously now. Just looked at the Bachmann GWR liveried 94XXs and they have doors in the pack and they're black. As are the ones on the preserved example.

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/9400-2/

 

 

Jason