Sellafield North in 6ft x 30ins - No jokes please

[TravisM]

While I'm still in the planning stage of my Cumbrian Coast layout, which will probably be at least 18 months - 2 years before wood gets cut, so I thought I'd build something in the meantime, so at least I can play trains for awhile.  I bought a 6ft x 30ins baseboard from Tim Horn and build a shunting layout based on Robert Smaus 'Port of Los Angeles' layout, but relocating to somewhere like Boston, Lincolnshire, but it's not based on Boston docks, hence just the name 'The Docks'.

 

I have 21 BYA covered coil steel carriers, of which some can be shunted around into the steel warehouse by the Class 08 I have.  I can also put my DB Cargo Class 60 and several BYA's on the spare track (which can also be used as a programming track). 

 

The layout is planned to be portable, so exhibitable, and can could be expanded if need be.  I'd also like to hear what others think of the plan.

Edited February 4 by TravisM
Additional info

[davknigh]

The run around section seems a bit complex as most moves would involve coming back out to the front of the layout by a rather circuitous route. Is the track at the very front for display/programming purposes only or does it connect via fiddle yard/sticks to the rest of the layout?

 

Cheers,

 

David

[TravisM]

15 hours ago, davknigh said:

The run around section seems a bit complex as most moves would involve coming back out to the front of the layout by a rather circuitous route. Is the track at the very front for display/programming purposes only or does it connect via fiddle yard/sticks to the rest of the layout?

 

Cheers,

 

David

 

The track is as you say, for display or programming only and though the layout can be extended, I don’t really plan to.  It’s main purpose is to give me something ‘play’ with until my Cumbrian Coast layout starts to be built.

 

It’s designed to not be straight forward as I want the layout to look like the were other industries that used to be rail served, but now gone.  The old loading platform will be largely overgrown and it’s track and others are mainly used to store BYA’s, so the Class 08 has to run round to get them into the warehouse.

 

I hope that makes sense?

Edited January 15 by TravisM
Spelling

[RobinofLoxley]

Docks but no water? Why not lose that unconnected track at the front and make it a dockside? To become more of a focal point for goods movements the other tracks would have to be shifted a bit but dock to warehouses would be possible. Look up threads by @Schooner who has a big interest in this

[TravisM]

17 minutes ago, RobinofLoxley said:

Docks but no water? Why not lose that unconnected track at the front and make it a dockside? To become more of a focal point for goods movements the other tracks would have to be shifted a bit but dock to warehouses would be possible. Look up threads by @Schooner who has a big interest in this

Two reasons, firstly I have a back scene already printed out of a merchant ship which I had photographed, tied up at the dock, behind the warehouse, secondly, the baseboard has been produced flat, so to produce water, means either butchering what I’ve got or paying to have built in.  As this is meant to be a ‘cheap’ modelling exercise using what track I already have, I picked the first option.

[simon b]

The biggest problem that I can see is none of the headshunts/kickbacks are long enough for what you want to do, unless your planning to shunt a single wagon at a time? Visually the layout looks good but I dont think it will be fun to operate as you have it set out. Can I suggest that you move the through line to the middle of the board at an angle, with tracks coming of towards the front of the layout as well as the rear.  

[TravisM]

4 minutes ago, simon b said:

The biggest problem that I can see is none of the headshunts/kickbacks are long enough for what you want to do, unless your planning to shunt a single wagon at a time? Visually the layout looks good but I dont think it will be fun to operate as you have it set out. Can I suggest that you move the through line to the middle of the board at an angle, with tracks coming of towards the front of the layout as well as the rear.  

 

Unfortunately, I'm well aware that there's only enough length for a single BYA and Class 08, but I thought that would be half the fun, moving a single wagon at a time, running around it, so the layout is more a 'time saver' layout, rather than prototypical.

[simon b]

1 hour ago, TravisM said:

 

Unfortunately, I'm well aware that there's only enough length for a single BYA and Class 08, but I thought that would be half the fun, moving a single wagon at a time, running around it, so the layout is more a 'time saver' layout, rather than prototypical.

 

It would be fun trying to shunt it without jamming yourself up, kind of a puzzle in itself. You could design it so your 60 brings a rake of wagons onto the layout, then the 08 picks them off to get them into the various buildings? If you have your headshunts that short you may find yourself limited to what stock you can run, large bogie ferry vans being a good example.

 

Which tracks go off scene on the plan, just the bottom pair?

[TravisM]

27 minutes ago, simon b said:

 

It would be fun trying to shunt it without jamming yourself up, kind of a puzzle in itself. You could design it so your 60 brings a rake of wagons onto the layout, then the 08 picks them off to get them into the various buildings? If you have your headshunts that short you may find yourself limited to what stock you can run, large bogie ferry vans being a good example.

 

Which tracks go off scene on the plan, just the bottom pair?

 

If I wanted to extend the layout with a similar baseboard at each end, with holes at the ends for dowels and bolts to hold them together if that's the direction I want to go, then all the tracks could be extended, except the one into the warehouse (though could be extended with opening in the back to a hidden siding) and the one where the overhead crane is situated. I wanted to go with the KISS principle (Keep It Simple, Stupid) and also somewhere interesting to photograph loco's and stock, so I will keep it as it is for now.

[Schooner]

22 hours ago, TravisM said:

I'd also like to hear what others think of the plan.

 

In short, I think all the elements are great - I love things like the 24° crossing to the gantry crane - and agree that using the dock edge for the back of the layout is a good idea and can be really effective with a decent backscene, which it sounds like is well in hand.

 

There are some aspects which ring false, but that's no biggy if you're after more of a puzzle that a chunk of prototype (both my layouts, 4mm and 7mm are based on inglenooks on a 5'ish x 2'ish footprint). There are a couple of things that might benefit from a second pass, though.

 

A couple questions:

• What, and where, are your off-scene storage/fiddle track(s)?
• Do you need 6' of uninterupted track at the front of the layout?
• Am I right to understand the layout is a quick and fun thing, to handle the shunting of some BYAs?
• Are you planning to use standard tension link couplings? De-coupling ramps? Hand of god? How are BYAs brought out of the steel warehouse?

A couple thoughts:

• 6' is actually pretty long in 4mm (our natural viewing angle is about 120°, so it gives plenty of length for at least two 'scenes' on-stage...but 30 inches isn't very deep. Have you tried flipping the steel warehouses so they mask/frame the left hand of the scene, rather than taking up half the layout depth? 
• The trackplan requires a lot of short runs and changes of direction...are you sure this is what you find fun? We all have our own tastes, but it does risk tedium rather than challenge. Play trains on it in your head/on paper for 15mins and see how you feel...my gut instinct is it may benefit from a tighter focus on the shunting trifecta (running line; loop; sidings) to give a little more flow not just to trackwork but to operations too*.
• It's not a small layout by any means...but the amount of area lost to large buildings and the long rolling stock risks making it feel cramped. I'd suggest choosing a sceneic element or two you really want to highlight and then use everything else to frame these.
• On a related note, I would focus on the prime operation you want to depict (play trains with) and work out how to get the best run length and the right balance of complexity/emb*ggerance (cheers @NHY 581!) with that, and then see what space that leaves you with for other things. 
• Beware reverse curves...!

The pieces of the jigsaw look good, I'm just not sure they're put together in the most convincing/enjoyable way.

 

HTH :)

 

*I'm away from any planning software for a spell, but perhaps something like an entry/exit point near one corner, feeding a loop on the diagonal, feeding sidings into the remaining three corners for warehouse, loading platform and gantry crane. 

[TravisM]

1 hour ago, Schooner said:

 

 

In short, I think all the elements are great - I love things like the 24° crossing to the gantry crane - and agree that using the dock edge for the back of the layout is a good idea and can be really effective with a decent backscene, which it sounds like is well in hand.

 

There are some aspects which ring false, but that's no biggy if you're after more of a puzzle that a chunk of prototype (both my layouts, 4mm and 7mm are based on inglenooks on a 5'ish x 2'ish footprint). There are a couple of things that might benefit from a second pass, though.

 

A couple questions:

• What, and where, are your off-scene storage/fiddle track(s)?
• Do you need 6' of uninterupted track at the front of the layout?
• Am I right to understand the layout is a quick and fun thing, to handle the shunting of some BYAs?
• Are you planning to use standard tension link couplings? De-coupling ramps? Hand of god? How are BYAs brought out of the steel warehouse?

A couple thoughts:

• 6' is actually pretty long in 4mm (our natural viewing angle is about 120°, so it gives plenty of length for at least two 'scenes' on-stage...but 30 inches isn't very deep. Have you tried flipping the steel warehouses so they mask/frame the left hand of the scene, rather than taking up half the layout depth? 
• The trackplan requires a lot of short runs and changes of direction...are you sure this is what you find fun? We all have our own tastes, but it does risk tedium rather than challenge. Play trains on it in your head/on paper for 15mins and see how you feel...my gut instinct is it may benefit from a tighter focus on the shunting trifecta (running line; loop; sidings) to give a little more flow not just to trackwork but to operations too*.
• It's not a small layout by any means...but the amount of area lost to large buildings and the long rolling stock risks making it feel cramped. I'd suggest choosing a sceneic element or two you really want to highlight and then use everything else to frame these.
• On a related note, I would focus on the prime operation you want to depict (play trains with) and work out how to get the best run length and the right balance of complexity/emb*ggerance (cheers @NHY 581!) with that, and then see what space that leaves you with for other things. 
• Beware reverse curves...!

The pieces of the jigsaw look good, I'm just not sure they're put together in the most convincing/enjoyable way.

 

HTH :)

 

*I'm away from any planning software for a spell, but perhaps something like an entry/exit point near one corner, feeding a loop on the diagonal, feeding sidings into the remaining three corners for warehouse, loading platform and gantry crane. 

 

Hi @Schooner, thank you for your input and you have some valid points, but I thought I'd answer your questions;

 

As pointed out in several posts, though it's designed to be extended on either side, I don't plan to at the moment.

The front track is primarily for use as a programming track and to place loco's and stock to be photographed

Yes, your correct, the layout is mainly to find a use for my BYA's, of which I have 21 as I had planned to model the Wolverhampton/Bescot - Boston steel train but I've abandoned that idea because of limited space at home.  What do you do?  I'm not going to sell them as I've spent too much on them.

I'm using Kadee's and the Class 08 will go into the warehouse to collect the BYA's

 

As I've also put, the track plan is based on a US based layout which works very well, so I think it should also work well here.

[Schooner]

1 hour ago, TravisM said:

As pointed out in several posts, though it's designed to be extended on either side, I don't plan to at the moment.

 

Sorry, I understood this to mean no scenic extensions, not that the layout as drawn is self-contained. Defs doable (and sensible), but does benefit from a little extra planning to make sure you don't end up snookered too often!

 

I don't know if it helps, but I use a cassette on a folding bracket (just bought of Amazon etc, nothing special) to get stock on and off the layout. Useful, and adds nothing to the permanent footprint. It might be worth thinking about something similar to use as 'The Rest of the World' or perhaps as a headshunt, if only to confirm your current thoughts.

 

1 hour ago, TravisM said:

The front track is primarily for use as a programming track

Does this have to be at the front of your layout, or could it be on a length of 2"x1" somewhere convenient? The reason a few people have picked up on it is that it jars visually. Absolutely fine, but again worth just double checking other options to see if an alternative might appeal.

 

1 hour ago, TravisM said:

What do you do? 

Exactly as you are, I think, and as we all are: the best we can with our available resources :)

 

[TravisM]

I thought I'd expand the track plan if I wanted, but it makes the whole layout 18ft x 30ins.  The main reason the layout is as wide as it is, so it can fit onto my Wicks steel trestles, which are 30 ins wide.

 

 

[TravisM]

This plan might be better.

 

 

[simon b]

What about stretching the first plan over 2 boards, then the fiddle yard on the third board? If you stretch it out a bit you can have more warehouses with tracks going in, then that track layout makes more sense.

[TravisM]

1 hour ago, simon b said:

What about stretching the first plan over 2 boards, then the fiddle yard on the third board? If you stretch it out a bit you can have more warehouses with tracks going in, then that track layout makes more sense.

It would mean that some, or most of the point work would be over the joint, not a very good idea.

[simon b]

1 minute ago, TravisM said:

It would mean that some, or most of the point work would be over the joint, not a very good idea.

If you start with the center diamond positioned to the left of the board joint, none of the points land on a joint.

[TravisM]

Maybe this is a better plan, and I can use my Bachmann single road servicing shed.  I can also put a road along the front and the ship moored up on the back scene, behind the low relief warehouses.

 

Edited January 16 by TravisM
Spelling

[TravisM]

I had a rethink about the plan, and decided to keep it as much as the original but lose the track in front and make it a roadway for trucks going into, and out of the docks, with the main gate just off scene.  Also straightened the two right hand sidings to give some extra length, as well as removing the old loading platform, turned the siding slightly and added a Bachmann Scenecraft 44-126 single road servicing shed which I have.  It can be used not only to park the Class 08, but used for wagon repairs as well.  To hide a noticeable space, I've added two non rail connected oil storage tanks.

Edited January 19 by TravisM
Additional info

[simon b]

It's a lot beter without the front track, what about having more of the tracks enter the buildings?

[TravisM]

14 hours ago, simon b said:

It's a lot beter without the front track, what about having more of the tracks enter the buildings?

Not needed as you’re going to cut short the head shunt into steel warehouse, and I want openings for trucks to back into.  Remember the KISS method, less is more.

Edited January 20 by TravisM

[Schooner]

Please excuse the presentation - conditions here not condusive to the accurate drawing of neat lines - but hopefully the below is a legible alternative footprint of the same features:

 

I suspect the track formation on the RHS (from the edge: LH curved to double slip and 24° crossing to RH to 12°/24° crossing depending on alignment) would take up significantly more space than on the sketch, but less than you have available.

 

I thought it worth trying something on paper because whilst you have a really good handle on your trackwork I remained unconvinced about the use of scenic space. Not that it's 'better' (whatever that means!), but hopefully it's helpful to see another option for the layout of main scenic elements.

 

HTH

 

Schooner

Edited January 21 by Schooner
Sp!

[Flying Pig]

20 minutes ago, Schooner said:

Please excuse the presentation - conditions here not condusive to the accurate drawing of neat lines - but hopefully the below is a legible alternative footprint of the same features:

 

I suspect the track formation on the RHS (from the edge: LH curved to double slip and 24° crossing to RH to 12°/24° crossing depending on alignment) would take up significantly more space than on the sketch, but less than you have available.

 

I thought it worth trying something on paper because whilst you have a really good handle on your trackwork I remained unconvinced about the use of scenic space. Not that it's 'better' (whatever that means!), but hopefully it's helpful to see another option for the layout of main scenic elements.

 

HTH

 

Schooner

 

Difficult to say for sure from a sketch, but I've a feeling the headshunts would be too short to shunt a large wagon like a BYA between the two sides of the main loop (which appears to be necessary for siding access).

 

[Schooner]

Agreed as shown, although I think you actually only need a BYA/loco length for the spur itself, as long as there's length to run around siding access? 

 

I 'just' put the scenery in place and tried to link it in a sympathetic way. I think it would fundamentally work, but as shown is unlikely to be spot on! 

[Flying Pig]

13 minutes ago, Schooner said:

Agreed as shown, although I think you actually only need a BYA/loco length for the spur itself, as long as there's length to run around siding access? 

 

Yes - about a foot I reckon from the very limited information I can find online.