Lifting section with hinges below, or lift out?

[ITG]

I’ve kind of boxed myself in, as I’ve been working around the layout room, knowing sooner or later I would need to confront/construct the lifting section across an outward opening doorway. Now I’m getting close to that point.

There are 3 parallel tracks crossing the doorway, all level; a twin track main line and a branch line which sits some 150mm higher than ( and behind) the main line. I have twin track and single track girder bridges, which (with a short extension of mounting board underneath each) will be long enough to bridge the gap. So to the questions….
1. Because of the narrowness of such bridges, I’d rather not have to widen one end to mount appropriate surface hinges, either side of the tracks. I seem to recall seeing mention of a layout on RMWeb that used hinges which were mounted below the baseboard, but still opened upwards. I think some kitchen cupboard style hinges do this, but don’t know what they are called, or if they are accurate enough. Any ideas anyone?

 

2. Do I create two separate lifting bridge sections, one for the mainline and one for the branch? Or do I connect together the 2 bridges at the ends, by way of the mounting board, so that they lift together? Or will that bring complications with the different heights at each end, for either the hinges or the other end?

 

3. of course, I could simplify matters to make the bridges complete lift out sections, not hinged. Is that a better solution given the restraints?

As always, your wisdom and ideas most welcome.

Ian

[Nearholmer]

The obvious option is to hinge upwards, using backflap hinges mounted on top of “towers” to bring them above the height of the highest track.

 

But, doing that gets pretty tricky with one track 6” above the rest, for two reasons:

 

- creating strong, stable, accurately aligned “towers” that high involves either great care or great bulk. There are ways of doing it, but they aren’t “five minute jobs”, and there are weird ladder hinges that do most of it for you, but I’ve never been able to find them in shops;

 

- you need to design the not-hinge end of the flap very carefully, probably with “sticking out tongues” to ensure that it doesn’t foul as it rises and falls. Again, do-able, but tricky;

 

- the board either side of the chasm have to be rock solidly fixed, because any tiny movement in those boards (even that from expansion and contraction as humidity changes) will great annoying gaps at the interfaces; and,

 

- disguising the front, tall, hinge tower scenically is a bit tricky.

 

Personally, assuming this is 00, so the bridge structures are feather-light, not a scale where they get big and heavy, I’d go for two simple lift-out bridges, probably using structural cores made from aluminium box or I-section, dressed-up however you fancy. The boards either side still need to be rock-solid, and you’d need to creat very precise interface-aligned at each end (aluminium again?). Cheap spirit levels are a good source of very rigid aluminium section - you can sometimes get them in street markets, and while they’re untrustworthy as levels, they’d do this job.

Edited January 16 by Nearholmer

[ITG]

15 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

The obvious option is to hinge upwards, using backflap hinges mounted on top of “towers” to bring them above the height of the highest track.

The trouble is the towers will take up space, and the branch line runs pretty close to the wall, probably 4” off it, so not much space for towers, or even flatter based hinges. Hence my thinking about below board hinges.

 

18 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

assuming this is 00

Yes it is.

 

Thanks for all the other observations - all things on my “concerns “ list but it’s reassuring to hear someone else share the same views.

Ian

[Wheatley]

Paste Table hinges can be mounted on the side of the structure: https://www.ironmongeryworld.com/pair-of-steel-paste-board-hinges.html

 

Or you could make your own bespoke system using M4 bolts or similar: 

 

Just keep the axis of the hinge above the top of the rail. Only just above will work fine. 

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, ITG said:

I seem to recall seeing mention of a layout on RMWeb that used hinges which were mounted below the baseboard, but still opened upwards.

Start here and work your way through:

 

 

[drmditch]

I'm afraid I have repeated this post (extracted from my railway thread) several times now.

 

Since the layout goes round the exterior of the room, the crossing of the room door forms a major part of the structural engineering.

First the door itself was replaced with a sliding door, which was actually a mini-saga in itself.

Then there was the planning and construction of the two level 'swing out' section, the geometry of which is quite complex.

Here is a link to the full thread.

 

Section swung closed.

 

 

And open

 

 

And here is the two level structure in place

 

 

 

I will try to take pictures of both levels working, but this should give you an idea.

Planning the geometry needs care.

The carpentry is complex, and needs attention, (there aren't any right angles in the whole structure.)

Hinges are strong SS.

It is 'self-closing', so it i always left supported.

After what must be five years, it continues to work well.

I can run three trains continuously (if I want to!)

 

This technique has several advantages:-

- Nothing to drop on someone's head

- Rounded corners to avoid damage to hips etc.

 

I note that we seem to have lost some pictures again, but if you are interested I can try to 're-populate'  them.

 

 

Edited January 16 by drmditch

[ITG]

1 hour ago, drmditch said:

I'm afraid I have repeated this post (extracted from my railway thread) several times now.

Probably because it’s such a good idea and execution!

I will have a closer look at this idea, but I’m not sure it would work in my location. If I hinged it on the left, when open it would impact on my seated area adjacent to the workbench. Although maybe if I closed it, trains could circulate whilst at the workbench. If I hinged it on the right, it will form a barrier to walking into the operating well area. I’ll have to check the ergonomics.

thanks

Ian

[ITG]

2 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Start here and work your way through:

 

 

Thanks, very impressive engineering and carpentry. I particularly like that hinge configuration.

thanks

Ian

[Nearholmer]

Some of this depends on whether the area on the flap is to be landscaped or not - towers and backflips can be disguised in some circumstances, paste-table-hinges I think are more difficult, but not impossible.

 

Another thing that’s gone through my mind is the remote possibility of being taken badly unwell while “flapped in”, and anyone coming to help being unable to get the door open - that depends on which way the door hinges, and how pessimistic you are, of course.

[cliff park]

The flap on my railway hinges downwards, sorry no pictures, too cold out there. Very easy, but if you have any structures on the 'flap' they will impinge on the gap you have to walk through, and needs care walking past.

[ITG]

26 minutes ago, cliff park said:

The flap on my railway hinges downwards, sorry no pictures, too cold out there. Very easy, but if you have any structures on the 'flap' they will impinge on the gap you have to walk through, and needs care walking past.

That risk of damage is why I’m not really thinking of a downward hinged flap.

Ian

[ITG]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Some of this depends on whether the area on the flap is to be landscaped or not - towers and backflips can be disguised in some circumstances, paste-table-hinges I think are more difficult, but not impossible.

 

Another thing that’s gone through my mind is the remote possibility of being taken badly unwell while “flapped in”, and anyone coming to help being unable to get the door open - that depends on which way the door hinges, and how pessimistic you are, of course.

I think I’d call it “lightly landscaped”. As I said, the actual two (or one if they are co-joined as one) flaps will both be girder bridges. I can live with one being higher than the other - not prototypically impossible I guess. The room is 50 miles away from my day-to-day location so much thinking and planning occurs ‘here’, with doing over ‘there’. So I need to test and visualise some of these ideas and suggestions. Because these towers will sit higher than the bridge base, they will probably need to be disguised buildings, I guess.

I could accept paste table hinges if they sit beneath the “surface” (ie the base of the bridges), as the surface is the landscape per se.

 

The door opens outwards, so no risk there. I was the beneficiary of a slight conflict between the builder and the wife (mine, that is, not his). The new train room is built as an extension on the outside wall of the existing lounge.  Wife insisted she didn’t want the doorway opening into the lounge, which was, of course, the opposite of what I wanted to hear. But when she saw the recess of the door due to the thicker outside cavity wall in which it sat, she asked the builder to hang it the other way round, thus hiding the recess. He said the simple way of so doing was to have it opening into the lounge, and she said ok. Result! Just proves sometimes you have to be patient, and not proactively pick battles you can’t win. Fate plays a hand.

Ian

Edited January 16 by ITG
Spelling

[ColinK]

I have a lift out section on my layout, It is constructed like a conventional baseboard.  I’m finding it a bit heavy and clumbersome, plus I’ve nowhere proper to store it.  
 

For alignment I’ve got headless screws in the fixed baseboards with metal strips with holes in them fastened to the lift out board with the ends projecting, so when I put the lift out section in place, the holes in the metal strips drop over the headless screws.  At the moment I’m working on the layout so the boards are out of alignment.

 

As for track power, as its G scale you can get rail joiners (clamps actually) which are made for drop in sections.  So the power just flows through the track.  No use for OO though.

 

 

[St Enodoc]

9 hours ago, ITG said:

Thanks, very impressive engineering and carpentry. I particularly like that hinge configuration.

thanks

Ian

You're welcome, Ian. As I said in the topic, any credit for the idea must go to my friend John in Adelaide. I just adapted it for my situation (and to use wood instead of steel).

[DCB]

On 16/01/2024 at 07:48, ITG said:

I’ve kind of boxed myself in, as I’ve been working around the layout room, knowing sooner or later I would need to confront/construct the lifting section across an outward opening doorway. Now I’m getting close to that point.

There are 3 parallel tracks crossing the doorway, all level; a twin track main line and a branch line which sits some 150mm higher than ( and behind) the main line. I have twin track and single track girder bridges, which (with a short extension of mounting board underneath each) will be long enough to bridge the gap. So to the questions….
1. Because of the narrowness of such bridges, I’d rather not have to widen one end to mount appropriate surface hinges, either side of the tracks. I seem to recall seeing mention of a layout on RMWeb that used hinges which were mounted below the baseboard, but still opened upwards. I think some kitchen cupboard style hinges do this, but don’t know what they are called, or if they are accurate enough. Any ideas anyone?

 

2. Do I create two separate lifting bridge sections, one for the mainline and one for the branch? Or do I connect together the 2 bridges at the ends, by way of the mounting board, so that they lift together? Or will that bring complications with the different heights at each end, for either the hinges or the other end?

 

3. of course, I could simplify matters to make the bridges complete lift out sections, not hinged. Is that a better solution given the restraints?

As always, your wisdom and ideas most welcome.

Ian

I have a lifting section with  a station on it and a second lifting section above which lands on it.  It does not give much trouble except from distortion of the shed to which the layout is attached.  It was a lift out and was a total PITA.    The lifting section has metal hinges, very robust one being a Ford Focus bonnet hinge.   The upper level pivots further back than the lower so it can stand vertical behind the  lower one, it  is shorter than the main one as it sits higher and both just clear the ceiling .      The main hinges are around one inch wide and very rigid,   The upper being just a girder bridge  has its pivots below track level and the deck is shorter than the side girders for clearance.   The hinges are adjusted so the non hinge end bangs down on its supports absolutely square on.   Any packing or flexing leaves the tracks mis aligned so  I  make sure its solidly down..   The lift section is hard wired with wires running  at right angles to the tracks  so there is minimal droop.  I can get in or out by lifting both sections passing through and lowering them in about 15 seconds,    In my view lifting ( and lift out)  sections should be properly engineered and the adjacent baseboards built or adapted to suit. 
Pictures  taken at an earlier stage of construction which show the outer hinge (arrowed)

and upper hinges are hidden in the "Stone" abutments which swivel downwards.

Edited January 26 by DCB

[DCB]

More pics.     Upper level  Bridge sides longer than track so track lifts more nearly vertically

Wiring passes along axis of hinges
Lift section lifting hinge against wall in coal depot soon to be monumental mason.
Lift section down showing rather battered wooden Barrow crossing trying to disguise gap  Hinge in foreground

[ITG]

Just returning to this still currently ‘live’ (well, it is for me anyway) topic, as I’m not near the layout at the moment, I’m idling away time by researching a few things. That leads me to ask - has anyone used kitchen cabinet type hinges for lifting sections? I know there are many different types dependant on the cabinet door in question, but it seems there are some that lift a horizontal door away from the frame. Would this be suitable therefore for lifting a flap away from the rail edge as it opens to stand vertically? 
My thinking is that these hinges have various adjustment options which may allow me to ensure the alignment of the tracks is sound, in both horizontal and vertical planes. The advantage of using such would hopefully be that the hinges could be mounted below rather than above the flap/baseboard level. I could still use dowels for perfect alignment if necessary.

And if anyone does think these hinges might work, what on earth are they called amongst the myriad of different versions?

ian

[73c]

Don't know if they'd work but you could search for bridging unit hinges.

[DCB]

Just played with those hinges on a kitchen cabinet door and they Nothing like strong enough and  they are difficult to get to "Snap" over together and difficult to get lined up.   

Generally its better for the rails to overhang the lifting end  of the flap and the pivot to be above rail level.  That way there is no projecting rails on the fixed side to get snagged in ones. Anorak and the pivot side rails on the deck move away from fixed rails     It can't work with a pivot below rail level  if the flap lifts up as the rail gap will  disappear and rails will collide and distort.

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, DCB said:

It can't work with a pivot below rail level  if the flap lifts up

Yes it can. See my post near the top of this page and follow the link to my topic.

[jcm@gwr]

2 hours ago, DCB said:

Just played with those hinges on a kitchen cabinet door and they Nothing like strong enough and  they are difficult to get to "Snap" over together and difficult to get lined up.   

Generally its better for the rails to overhang the lifting end  of the flap and the pivot to be above rail level.  That way there is no projecting rails on the fixed side to get snagged in ones. Anorak and the pivot side rails on the deck move away from fixed rails     It can't work with a pivot below rail level  if the flap lifts up as the rail gap will  disappear and rails will collide and distort.

 

They are definitely strong enough, I built a pair of bridges for our main club layout, 7mm, 4 track roundy-roundy,

both approx 2' 9" long, with a locking stay (to safely keep them from falling on members!) they worked flawlessly

for a number of years.

 

 

 

 

[jcm@gwr]

8 hours ago, ITG said:

Just returning to this still currently ‘live’ (well, it is for me anyway) topic, as I’m not near the layout at the moment, I’m idling away time by researching a few things. That leads me to ask - has anyone used kitchen cabinet type hinges for lifting sections? I know there are many different types dependant on the cabinet door in question, but it seems there are some that lift a horizontal door away from the frame. Would this be suitable therefore for lifting a flap away from the rail edge as it opens to stand vertically? 
My thinking is that these hinges have various adjustment options which may allow me to ensure the alignment of the tracks is sound, in both horizontal and vertical planes. The advantage of using such would hopefully be that the hinges could be mounted below rather than above the flap/baseboard level. I could still use dowels for perfect alignment if necessary.

And if anyone does think these hinges might work, what on earth are they called amongst the myriad of different versions?

ian

 

Look for flat (or flush) mounted cupboard door hinges

[DCB]

On 27/01/2024 at 05:27, jcm@gwr said:

 

They are definitely strong enough, I built a pair of bridges for our main club layout, 7mm, 4 track roundy-roundy,

both approx 2' 9" long, with a locking stay (to safely keep them from falling on members!) they worked flawlessly

for a number of years.

With the pivot below rail level what stops the rail ends colliding at the pivot end as the bridge lifts?   How does the lifting end of the brick arches, the bottom of the arches  clear the  baseboard as it lifts.

I found the Mid Cornwall lines lift flap pictures and have reproduced them below,  Very impressive especially the metal hinge one , that must have taken hours to cut to shape. I see that moving the pivot back allows the deck at the rail joint end to lift vertically on a gentle arc, same as my upper bridge albeit my pivot is above rail level.  

[jcm@gwr]

I can't give you the mathematical reason, I just know that with the mechanism in the hinge it

doesn't just pivot. If you look at the 'brick' abutments at each end of the viaduct, you will see

that they are cut away at an angle, that was all that was needed for clearance.

[ITG]

1 hour ago, jcm@gwr said:

I can't give you the mathematical reason, I just know that with the mechanism in the hinge it

doesn't just pivot. If you look at the 'brick' abutments at each end of the viaduct, you will see

that they are cut away at an angle, that was all that was needed for clearance.

As I hinted at in my original post, those kitchen cabinet hinges come in many different configurations.  I suspect the model used by @jcm@gwr is one that actually lifts the hinged surface away from the fixed base. (Not all similar hinges do that). Thus, that lift away keeps the rail ends apart, as they separate as they open.

I think these hinges are used for upward opening doors, as used, for example, on bedroom bridging units, rather than vertically opening kitchen cabinets doors. Or they maybe those used on corner unit doors, which are double hinged. 
i can feel a visit to a small independent kitchen fitter is needed to identify the right version.

Ian