Help with signalling into this junction

[Benatkinsonuk]

Hi,

 

I’ve already learnt a lot about signalling from this site but would love some specific advice on what type of signals I’d require for the junction of the picture below (sorry for rubbish note quality). Coming into a terminus (modelled in gauge so not loads of options on the market). 
 

I’m just hoping to add some realism, and realise it would be above my budget to get a fully realistic and prototypical setup of signalling for here, I think!? So the aim is to just having something that works and looks fairly good.

 

For context it’s just the two lines into the station from the bottom of the picture. Am I right in thinking any light controlling traffic in to a terminus or siding wouldn’t have the green light, just amber and red? 
 

I’m also half guessing the lights coming back out of the station would default set to red and I would need to have them set up on a switch to be able to release the trains? Potentially with a feather to show their route? Again budget comes into it a bit.

 

Any thoughts appreciated …

 

Ben 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

Others can offer better advice on signalling than I can, but you'll probably need to make things a little clearer.

 

5 hours ago, Benatkinsonuk said:

For context it’s just the two lines into the station from the bottom of the picture.

What do you mean by "two lines"? Do you mean a double track (entering the photograph at the bottom), a double track plus branch (the stub on the right where it says "branch line back out") or a single track main line entering the 3-way point plus a single track branch (the stub on the right). If it is a double track main, is there another crossover out of site below the bottom of the picture?

 

5 hours ago, Benatkinsonuk said:

Am I right in thinking any light controlling traffic in to a terminus or siding wouldn’t have the green light, just amber and red? 

Yes, after 1975 or so. Green was used before then.

 

5 hours ago, Benatkinsonuk said:

I’m also half guessing the lights coming back out of the station would default set to red

All lights in a location like this would be red unless a route is set for a train. Lights reset to red behind the train. On plain track, or where points were rarely changed, signals might be automatic and clear to yellow and green following a train, but you wouldn't have that at a station like this.

Edited February 9 by Jeremy Cumberland

[Benatkinsonuk]

Thanks @Jeremy Cumberland - there is a crossover before this picture. I’ll send a better photo this afternoon when I’m home of the full station approach. 

[MartinRS]

6 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

es, after 1975 or so. Green was used before then.

I certainly remember reading about the accident at a terminus in L. T. C. Rolt's Red for Danger, which resulted in the final approach signal being changed from green to yellow. My paperback copy has long since disintegrated. The book was first published in 1955 and Rolt passed away in 1974. I suspect final approach signal must have changed way before the mid-1970s. The book sales site Goodreads, states, Every major accident on British railways between 1840 and 1957 is covered with the evolution of safety developments.

 

The paperback cover shown there mentions revisions by Geoffrey Kichenside which might explain the disparity between the last date of accidents covered (1957) and the publication date (1955), or was the book revised agin at a later date?

[Jeremy Cumberland]

I am pretty sure it was Moorgate, in February 1975, that resulted in the change. My own copy of Red For Danger goes up to Lewisham (1957). The introduction says that Rolt revised the book in 1960 and 1966, and that a new edition with accidents up to 1980 was produced by Geoffrey Kichenside. My copy is a reprint of the 1966 edition, "presenting the book exactly as the author hinself left it" as the introduction describes it, but in reality it is a poor quality modern reprint with lots of typos. I can't think that Mr Rolt would have been happy to put his name to it.

[Michael Hodgson]

38 minutes ago, MartinRS said:

I certainly remember reading about the accident at a terminus in L. T. C. Rolt's Red for Danger, which resulted in the final approach signal being changed from green to yellow. My paperback copy has long since disintegrated. The book was first published in 1955 and Rolt passed away in 1974. I suspect final approach signal must have changed way before the mid-1970s. The book sales site Goodreads, states, Every major accident on British railways between 1840 and 1957 is covered with the evolution of safety developments.

 

The paperback cover shown there mentions revisions by Geoffrey Kichenside which might explain the disparity between the last date of accidents covered (1957) and the publication date (1955), or was the book revised agin at a later date?

The accident in question was Moorgate, 1975 on what was the part of the Northern Line (now part of the GN suburban network).  Train hit dead end tunnel wall at speed, killing motorman and about 30 passengers, took a few days to recover the bodies.  Cause was never fully established, but change of final signal to show no better than single yellow was one of several recommendations.  Red for Danger sold very well, so I suspect it may have been updated by others as a later edition after the author's death.

If you want to read accident reports (for free!), I can recommened this site https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/

[Benatkinsonuk]

Attached here are the pics that lead to the station. Bit harder to see now the track is mostly weathered. 
 

Pic 1 - bottom left the double track main lines run in from the scenic break with the branch line running out to a small DMU sized station. Then moving up the photo, a cross over with access to the small sidings on the left,

 

pic 2 - the station throat 

 

let me know your signalling thoughts! Or if you need more info?

 

Edited February 9 by Benatkinsonuk

[MartinRS]

5 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

I am pretty sure it was Moorgate, in February 1975, that resulted in the change. My own copy of Red For Danger goes up to Lewisham (1957). The introduction says that Rolt revised the book in 1960 and 1966, and that a new edition with accidents up to 1980 was produced by Geoffrey Kichenside. My copy is a reprint of the 1966 edition, "presenting the book exactly as the author hinself left it" as the introduction describes it, but in reality it is a poor quality modern reprint with lots of typos. I can't think that Mr Rolt would have been happy to put his name to it.

Thanks for the information. It must have been a post 1975 revised version of the book I owned.

 

Back to the station and signals. The right-most siding ought to have a trap point. (Back to Red for Danger. IIRC an accident at Stairfoot was caused by a uncoupled wagons running away from sidings at Barnsley Junction sidings (I think). A trap point would have prevented the wagons getting out onto the mainline).

 

As a minimum I would suggest a starter at the end of each platform. The double track approach to the station would probably be controlled by a signal with feathers for each available route, or a theatre type indicator. (If you just want to keep things simple just use a colour light signal with a dummy theatre indicator).

 

Is there is a single track branch with wrong-line running on the main-line? It has an unusual track configuration and looks very complicated to signal! Its difficult to make suggestions as you have started to lay track. My experience is limited to installing and maintaining signals, not planning, and then that was a long time ago.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

Is the branch line the line that extends to the bottom of the top picture? And is the short grey-sleepered track on the right a headshunt or siding?

 

If the long curved line is the branch, then both branch and main can use all three platforms so they both need a Yellow/Green signal with route indication (I would favour a non-working theatre indicator). The main line signal goes before the short sidings join on the left. The branch signal goes before the branch joins the main line. I have no idea whether either signal needs to be set back any distance from the fouling point.

 

The three platforms each need a Green/Yellow/Red starter with route indication (again I'd favour a dummy theatre display) and a subsidiary signal for shunting (which can also be non-working - the two white lights are next to impossible to see in 00, let alone Nl).

 

The short sidings need a ground shunt signal or signals (non-working), and in real life they'd have a trap, but traps are very hard to see on a model. If they are carriage sidings then each siding probably has its own signal, but if they are goods or engineers or loco servicing sidings then the point between them will probably be hand worked and they'll just have the one signal cover both sidings.

 

The run round loop and station siding need a ground shunt signal (or more likely, one each) and a trap. The headshunt also needs a ground shunt signal amd a trap for movements heading back into the station.

 

So that's five working signals, plus a number of bits of plastic that look like signals.

[Benatkinsonuk]

Thanks @Jeremy Cumberland, you’re correct with your first guess. The branch line is the one that is weathered and the currently grey piece of flex track is a head shunt.

 

That all makes sense, thanks very much. I’ll look into these various bits and make some progress.

[WillCav]

There are a couple of things I would add to the signalling mix:

 

1) Junction Indicators would be very unlikely to be 'feathers' due to the low speeds and routes into terminal platforms.  The terminal platform starters would definitely not be 'feathers'.  Standard Indicators showing all main routes as a letter/platform number would likely be provided.

 

2) The junction signal on approach to the two sidings will ideally need to have a signalling overlap clear of the points - ideally 180m (1.2m, 4ft) but could be compressed.  If the overlap goes through the points, you can't run a train into/out of the sidings when another train is approaching on the Main line.

 

As has already been said - no green leading to buffers following Moorgate.  One thing seldom modelled is a three aspect signal head with green blanked-out.

 

Regards

 

Will

[Davexoc]

I'd agree with most things previously said, theatre boxes rather than feathers.

What signals are you thinking of using?

I built N Brass Loco ones for my layout. I added working shunt and ground signals too using fibre optics on the GPLs...

The ground signal fret comes with some small indicator boxes, but as the owner was selling the business, not sure of availability.

[Benatkinsonuk]

17 hours ago, Davexoc said:

I'd agree with most things previously said, theatre boxes rather than feathers.

What signals are you thinking of using?

I built N Brass Loco ones for my layout. I added working shunt and ground signals too using fibre optics on the GPLs...

The ground signal fret comes with some small indicator boxes, but as the owner was selling the business, not sure of availability.

For the platform starters the absolute aspect n gauge signals with position indicators look like they’d be very good, though not cheap.
 

I can’t seem to find any signals with theatre boxes in N, or any kits that I could add. I guess scratch building a dummy theatre box might be possible?!

 

I’m happy to go with dummy ground shunt signals, although was interested to read about your working fibre optic ones!

[TheSignalEngineer]

My first questions on any topic like this are 

1) Where is it?

2) What time period, e.g. 1970-75?

3) What type of trains and service pattern?

4) Type of signalling. You already appear to be colour light, but would that be appropriate for the time and place?

 

Knowing those things make the discussion much easier.

[Benatkinsonuk]

4 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

My first questions on any topic like this are 

1) Where is it?

2) What time period, e.g. 1970-75?

3) What type of trains and service pattern?

4) Type of signalling. You already appear to be colour light, but would that be appropriate for the time and place?

 

Knowing those things make the discussion much easier.

hi @TheSignalEngineer - good points.

 

1. Modelling a fairly central fictional location with some inspiration from the south west. This point isn’t too detailed in my plan. 
2. Mid / late 90’s - from 1994-1999

3. I’ve a HST, class 37, class 47 for loco hauled stuff and parcels and 2x DMUs (155&158) and a class 08 to act as station pilot (which were fairly rare in my time period (?) but I’ll enjoy the operational interest)

4. Coloured light but anything to help give me a bit of realism really. The branch line will loosely be based on St Ives, I thought I could even include some old signals here but maybe that’s not necessary.

 

appreciate your thoughts…! 

[TheSignalEngineer]

30 minutes ago, Benatkinsonuk said:

1. Modelling a fairly central fictional location with some inspiration from the south west. This point isn’t too detailed in my plan. 

So probably on the edge of a medium size town somewhere in the southern half of England. Big enough to retain the railway post-Beeching but far enough out to be the end of the line or possibly a truncated through route like Stratford-upon-Avon. Had a branch from the station to the town centre like Stourbridge or to an industrial site.

 

 

 

38 minutes ago, Benatkinsonuk said:

2. Mid / late 90’s - from 1994-1999

3. I’ve a HST, class 37, class 47 for loco hauled stuff and parcels and 2x DMUs (155&158) and a class 08 to act as station pilot (which were fairly rare in my time period (?) but I’ll enjoy the operational interest)

• A bit of a chaotic time, birth of privatisation. Parcels traffic had largely died by the late 1990s.  Are you liveries early  your liveries privatisation era with a hangover from Sectorisation?
• 08s were still found at odd places around the system at that time. About 300 survived to the end of BR. Perhaps the branch could have a location where there was a special freight traiifc which was carried by rail.
• At Oldbury in the Black Country we had Albright & Wilson who had a factory making, amongst other nasties, the phosphorous ingredient for matches. They had a regular delivery of Chlorine in rail tankers until 1995. IIRC they had a ferry van at each end as a barrier wagon.
• In the same era we had trip workings at Langley Green about three times per week of a few cement tanks from Earles Sidings at Hope to the depot at Queens Head in Handsworth.
• There were also POA wagons to the scrapyard at Handsworth at that time, inwards empty and outwards full of scrap to a steelworks.

 

1 hour ago, Benatkinsonuk said:

4. Coloured light but anything to help give me a bit of realism really. The branch line will loosely be based on St Ives, I thought I could even include some old signals here but maybe that’s not necessary.

Around your era we were looking at resignalling stations at the end of lines and filling gaps that had escaped resignalling when Power Boxes were being built. Old fringe boxes were becoming life expired so work was needed to get rid of them.

 

On the track layout I can't say how logical it would be without knowing the moves and distances involved but you need some trap points in the sidings and run round.

 

As already said all platforms would have a 3-aspect R/Y/G with theatre indicator and cats eyes usually with a minaure indicator for sidings or shunt moes from them. The exit from the run round wound probably be a position light ground signal and from the siding a position light or ground mounted three aspect depending on the location of the next signal.

Incoming the signals would be 2-aspect R/Y with a theatre indicator if they could read to more than one platform  and cats eyes for shuntng into an occupied platform or going into sidings.

 

If the signalling was installed pre-1990 a relay room would be put somewhere in the area, probably a portable building style. If later it would be SSI with most of the equipment in location cases but in a busy area like the platform ends a small equipent building could be provided.

 

 

[Benatkinsonuk]

Thanks @TheSignalEngineer

All very interesting points taken on board. 
 

To answer the liveries question, the HST is swallow livery, 47 and 08 are Rail Express Systems, 37 is the fairly rare mainline livery, and the DMUs are regional. 

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

The last of those liveries to be introduced was Mainline in October 1994, so that would fix the date to a small window before privatisation liveries started to arrive after 1996. 

Swallow livery on XC lasted until about 2000.

Edited February 14 by TheSignalEngineer