Cavalex 56 and DCC

[The Fatadder]

In an attempt to separate out the DCC content from the core thread on the new Cavalex Class 56.  My hope is that separating this discussion out from the general discussion it will be a more useful point of reference in the future.

 

Obviously the model is designed to be used with a specifically programmed Lokpilot 5 or Loksound 5 decoder.  Some retailers (Trains4U and Road & Rails for a start) are selling these pre programmed, while Cavalex are working on a retrofit sound kit at some point in the future.

In the meantime, if you have access to an ESU Lokprogrammer Cavalex / ESU have provided the required decoder information here https://projects.esu.eu/projectoverviews/8 ready to install on your decoder.  Hopefully Cavalex will be able to share the CV mapping of these settings as a text file at some point in order that those without a lokprogrammer or a preset chip will be able to use alternative routes to programme their loco.

 

The issues come if you want to use an alternative brand of decoder, be that a case that you dont like ESU chips (as some dont) or you are looking for a cheaper decoder.

 

My first though was to try the Dapol Imperium 8fct, the logic being it offers 4 powered functions and 4 MTC logic outputs (as opposed to the Lokpilot with 4 powered and 6 MTC logic outputs).  So in theory the cheaper decoder should get 75% of the functionality at half the price (I live in hope that the tail lights and working fan are on aux 1-4 and not on aux 6/7 that I do not have on this decoder.)    Logically I am assuming that as both decoders confirm to the NMRA standards the decoder pin for aux 1-4 on the Dapol chip match that of the ESU chip.   This is hard to confirm as while ESU publish a pin output diagram, Dapol do not appear to.

 

So far I have tried the switches in both sets of positions shown in the manual, however the ESU decoder settings leave no working lights/fan.  The analogue mode gives a high intensity headlight (direction controled) on F0/F1 and marker lights on F2/F3.  but no working Aux functions for tails/cablights / roof fans.

On the plus side this means that any 21pin 4 function decoder will give the most fundamental lighting required on a layout with the loco on the head of a train.

 

The question now will be working out how  to get those aux functions to do anything.  My hope is that it will be possible to work backward from the cv data on the Lokpilot setup to work out how to get other chips which have 4-6 aux functions to get full control of the loco.   

 

(I am also hoping that I am not the only one going down this route of an alternative chip, and that someone else either already has worked it out or gets there before me!)

[The Fatadder]

In the main 56 thread Cavalex posted the function mapping

On 01/02/2024 at 17:56, RBE said:

F0f - headlight front

F0r - headlight rear

aux1 - front markers

aux2 - rear markers

aux3 - fan #1

aux4 - fan #2

aux5 - front tails

aux6 - rear tails

aux7 - front cab

aux10 - rear cab

Obviously the proper chip will also have the logic commands driving other behaviours, but in theory from the above it should  be possible to have control over headlights / marker lights / both fans (individually) and tail lights, so it will just be the cab lights that are lost.   With direct control from the decoder to the function.   I am assuming that these would all be voltage outputs rather than logic (which would explain why only the headlights are currently working).  Per the Dapol instructions changing cv 59 to 0 will change this, I am hoping that will see a bit more life coming out of the functions.

 

My assumption would be that this would required the switches set in the standard analogue / non ESU position, given it would still be lacking all of the additional ESU programming.

 

 

 

[Nigelcliffe]

3 hours ago, The Fatadder said:

In an attempt to separate out the DCC content from the core thread on the new Cavalex Class 56.  ........

 

In the meantime, if you have access to an ESU Lokprogrammer Cavalex / ESU have provided the required decoder information here https://projects.esu.eu/projectoverviews/8 ready to install on your decoder.  Hopefully Cavalex will be able to share the CV mapping of these settings as a text file at some point in order that those without a lokprogrammer or a preset chip will be able to use alternative routes to programme their loco.

............

 

You can decypher the LokPilot settings for zero cost, just time.   The LokProgrammer software is a free download from ESU.  The locomotive file is in the link above.  With the software you can load the locomotive file and see the settings deployed, function outputs used, etc..      If required, that can be exported as a CV list, for import into JMRI/DecoderPro (but that step probably unnecessary if trying to find out how it works, what output does what, etc..).  

 

 

 

 

[The Fatadder]

32 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

You can decypher the LokPilot settings for zero cost, just time.   The LokProgrammer software is a free download from ESU.  The locomotive file is in the link above.  With the software you can load the locomotive file and see the settings deployed, function outputs used, etc..      If required, that can be exported as a CV list, for import into JMRI/DecoderPro (but that step probably unnecessary if trying to find out how it works, what output does what, etc..).  

 

 

 

 

That’s useful to know, but will download and have a look.

 

my hope is that by replicating settings I can get the wrong decoder to work in the right way…

[Bryn_Bach_Railway]

Would be interested to see what results you get. I myself am trying to use a Zimo MN340C, and currently have the headlight working directionally, plus markers (F0f, F0f, F1 & F2) all working without modification. A couple of CV tweaks and I’ve got the read cab working too (F10), however the same teaks that are supposed to set up the front cab are not working. I’ve yet to get fans or tail lights (F3, F4, F5 & F6). Interestingly I’ve tested with a voltmeter and the decoder is giving an output, but the loco is not responding to it. Have tried swapping to full power too but not having much luck there either. Not entirely sure the decoder is swapping over tho. 

[The Fatadder]

I am getting progressively more frustrated with the Dapol chip, more so after reading about its F3-f7 not working in other models by various manufacturers.  Contemplating returning it for a refund as not fit for purpose and giving in and buying the right chip!

[Bryn_Bach_Railway]

Just now, The Fatadder said:

I am getting progressively more frustrated with the Dapol chip, more so after reading about its F3-f7 not working in other models by various manufacturers.  Contemplating returning it for a refund as not fit for purpose and giving in and buying the right chip!

That’s interesting to hear as I quickly tested a 6function Dapol chip and had F3/F4 working (F5/6 wouldn’t have worked reguardless due to how I’ve set up that decoder) what positions are the dip switches set to?

[The Fatadder]

A 6 function Lais chip gives me headlights/marker lights/ fans

(with the switches in dc position), change the switches and it gives nothing working.

 

with the imperium3 I’ve changed cv59

to switch the functions from logic to power but it gave no change

[Bryn_Bach_Railway]

14 minutes ago, The Fatadder said:

A 6 function Lais chip gives me headlights/marker lights/ fans

(with the switches in dc position), change the switches and it gives nothing working.

 

with the imperium3 I’ve changed cv59

to switch the functions from logic to power but it gave no change

Just taken an 8function Dapol chip out of another model, and interestingly this one one do the fans at all, just F0-2

[The Fatadder]

1 hour ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

Just taken an 8function Dapol chip out of another model, and interestingly this one one do the fans at all, just F0-2

I was speaking to a retailer yesterday who mentioned the same issue with the 8fct Dapol chip in Revolutions Caroline, and as per before I had the same issue when I tried it in an Accurascale Deltic.  There’s clearly something odd going on with the Dapol chip, hence thinking I will speak to my retailer about the return process as it’s clearly not fit for purpose 

 

I’ve yet to hear of f3 upwards working in anything

[Bryn_Bach_Railway]

1 minute ago, The Fatadder said:

I was speaking to a retailer yesterday who mentioned the same issue with the 8fct Dapol chip in Revolutions Caroline, and as per before I had the same issue when I tried it in an Accurascale Deltic.  There’s clearly something odd going on with the Dapol chip, hence thinking I will speak to my retailer about the return process as it’s clearly not fit for purpose 

 

I’ve yet to hear of f3 upwards working in anything

When I tested the 8function with a volt meter, it only seems to give out around 4 volts. With a difference of around 1 volt when activated. That might be what the issue is as the logic circuits are most likely expecting closer to a difference of 3 Volts to activate each function.

 

this seems to be backed up when testing the Zimo chip too, as the only logic level function with with a difference around 3 volts or more is the only one that works

[Kaput]

Dapol's 8 function is full power on the functions.

The 6 function has the logic level functions that 90% of models use.

 

 

The pre-programmed LokPilot for the Cavalex 56 has this oddity in the function mapping:

 

To me thats saying Aux11 is always activated. Why? I have no idea but probably worth trying to map FO11 to a function key and turning it on with your Zimo

[Bryn_Bach_Railway]

8 hours ago, Kaput said:

Dapol's 8 function is full power on the functions.

The 6 function has the logic level functions that 90% of models use.

 

 

The pre-programmed LokPilot for the Cavalex 56 has this oddity in the function mapping:

 

To me thats saying Aux11 is always activated. Why? I have no idea but probably worth trying to map FO11 to a function key and turning it on with your Zimo

Aux 11 for esu, is F8 for Zimo and most others (esu skip AUX 8/9 for some reason) F8 isn’t supposed to do anything so will have a look at that.

[ohmygoodnessme]

Quote

 

Dapol's 8 function is full power on the functions.

The 6 function has the logic level functions that 90% of models use.

 

 

According to Dapol's website, the 6 function decoder is 2 powered plus 4 logic (switch) functions. 

The imperium 8 function decoder is 4 powered plus four logic.

The Dapol 121 has (amongst its other foibles) power transistors on the circuit board to power up the logic outputs.

 

ESU has boards with amplifiers (e.g. 51968) to upgrade logic functions to powered outputs, which were useful upto Lokpilot 4 series (which had 4 powered plus 2 logic)  but the Lokpilot 5 series has 10 (!) powered outputs and on the 21MTC, possible access to another 4 logic outputs, so if ESU are designing the circuity for a locomotive, presumably they are accessing these logic functions and possibly powering them up?  It's an interesting situation. By having ESU onboard (no pun intended), Cavalex and Accurascale bring their expertise to exploit and push functionality that otherwise possibly wouldn't be accessed. If ESU has the opportunity to use up to 14 functions then why not, it will steer punters wishing to use the functionality to ESU's Lokpilot as well. There's a potential downside for non ESU users, in that anything above Aux 3 can only be utilised if you fit a decoder with at least the same level of functionality (which Dapol clearly aren't) and then you have to program it.    

 

If you bought a new car with 7 speakers that the manufacturer had designed with Kenwood, but the car came without the stereo, would you buy and fit a Kenwood stereo or would you pop in there another stereo that you just happened to have which had an amp for two speakers, preamps for another 4 and no functionality for the subwoofer?  Maybe as a stop-gap. 

 

If anyone has both the Accurascale 37 and the Cavalex 56 in front of them, are there similarities (e.g. cab lights on same Aux number, engine room lights on the same Aux number)?  Cavalex have thoughtfully made the Lokpilot file downloadable but I'm in the opposite situation to everyone else. I have an ESU chip and a file but don't have the model yet. 

 

Regards

 

     

Edited February 19 by ohmygoodnessme

[SRman]

Cavalex 56:
Front Light = Headlight Front

Rear Light = Headlight Rear

AUX 1 = Markers Front

AUX 2 = Markers Rear

AUX3 = Fan #1

AUX4 = Fan #2

AUX 5 = Tail Front

AUX 6 = Tail Rear

AUX 7 = Cab Front

AUX 10 = Cab Rear

 

Accurascale 37:

Front light [1] = White marker Front

Rear light [1] = White marker Rear

AUX1 [1] = Red tail light Front

AUX2 [1] = Red tail light Rear

AUX3 = Dashboard Front

AUX4 = Dashboard Rear

AUX5 = Headlight/Day Front

AUX6 = Headlight/Day Rear

AUX7 = Night Front

AUX8 = Night Rear

AUX9 = Cab Front

AUX10 = Cab Rear

AUX11 = Top Front

AUX12 = Top Rear

AUX13 = Top Rear

AUX14 = Engine Room

 

Bear in mind that not all of the 37 variations have all of those lights available, with some only applying to the WiPAC fitted versions. Also, locomotives like the 56 would have no need for engine room lights, at least in model form, because there are no side windows.

In short, we are not entirely comparing apples with apples.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 18 by SRman
Additional comments.

[Bryn_Bach_Railway]

1 hour ago, ohmygoodnessme said:

Cavalex and Accurascale bring their expertise to exploit and push functionality that otherwise possibly wouldn't be accessed. If ESU has the opportunity to use up to 14 functions then why not 

The difference here is there’s no need for the extra functions that only ESU can access on this model (neither is there on the AS37 if you actually break down what lights are needed and when) but the model still only seems to accept esu chips. From what I can gather, it seems like the circuit is very picky about the logic level voltage it receives. As the only logic level output the Zimo chip can turn on (F10) is the only one to supply a slightly higher voltage. However all the outputs are giving some voltage. Whether it’s the decoder not giving enough for the standard, the loco not following the standard, or a combination of the two is yet to be determined. But the Zimo chip has no problem with the logic level in a Dapol 68.

 

If manufacturers want to go down the route of using specific ships, that’s fine, but this needs to be specified on the websites that these chips are required for full functionality. Just stating “21pin DCC socket” implies all functions are accessible by any decoder with enough outputs, which is not the case in either the cavalex 56 or the AS 37 (AS37 has more outputs than needed and uses a proprietary set up by esu)

[Bryn_Bach_Railway]

The other issue with ESU is you can only really re-map or change detailed CV’s on their chips either via a lok-programmer, or by some other computer interface. Even just to get a list of cv’s you need their software to find what needs to be change. The manual is useless for detailed function mapping

 

zimo on the other hand, near enough every cv is in the manual and can be programmed directly on a controller like the gaugemaster prodigy. No need for a computer but can still be done by one if wanted

[Nigelcliffe]

26 minutes ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

The other issue with ESU is you can only really re-map or change detailed CV’s on their chips either via a lok-programmer, or by some other computer interface. Even just to get a list of cv’s you need their software to find what needs to be change. The manual is useless for detailed function mapping

 

You can change anything on an ESU *if* you read the manual carefully.  It has a very logical and consistent method.   (I worked it out, and documented it, for the LokSound V4 before there were any manuals, by observing the outputs of the LokProgrammer software.  ).   

 

With the LokProgrammer software (free, don't need the hardware), and the ESU decoder file (provided for this project), you can get a list of CV settings used in this decoder project.    

 

 

You say Zimo is easier - it is only if you know which of the numerous different approaches the decoder producer has used - there being three or four different ways to achieve function mapping.   

 

 

Changing things by DCC handset is tedious for both maker's decoders, requiring lots of button presses.    A consequence of powerful and configurable decoders.  

Edited February 18 by Nigelcliffe

[Bryn_Bach_Railway]

36 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

You can change anything on an ESU *if* you read the manual carefully.  It has a very logical and consistent method.   (I worked it out, and documented it, for the LokSound V4 before there were any manuals, by observing the outputs of the LokProgrammer software.  ).   

The latest lok-pilot 5 manual I could find does not cover any cv’s for Swiss mapping. Just a simple couple of sentences that describes what it does. 
 

39 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

With the LokProgrammer software (free, don't need the hardware), and the ESU decoder file (provided for this project), you can get a list of CV settings used in this decoder project.

That’s all well and good however it requires more cv’s to be changed and cv indexing etc. it’s another thing to download and figure out how to work. And means you have to be at a computer to work it out. That’s a lot of unnecessary steps.

 

43 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

You say Zimo is easier - it is only if you know which of the numerous different approaches the decoder producer has used - there being three or four different ways to achieve function mapping.   

For pre-programmed chips yes, but from a brand new chip into a brand new model that’s not an issue. The model will have outputs assigned to pins, the function mapping on the decoder just changes what pin the decoder sends a signal to from the function signal to. The model knows no different.

 

47 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 Changing things by DCC handset is tedious for both maker's decoders, requiring lots of button presses.    A consequence of powerful and configurable decoders.  

It seems daunting at first, but it’s not that difficult to swap a couple functions and set up Swiss mapping with Zimo at all. Swapping an aux function to a different button on the controller needs just 1 cv changed per function. So for Swapping F2 to F5, it takes seconds. Swiss mapping then has 6 CV’s per group. For something like F11 turns on tail lights at each end, again it takes about a minute or 2 to do.