The in's and out's of taking a (big) model railway to a show in Europe (the EU)

[TEAMYAKIMA]

Let me begin by saying that I have a possible/likely invite to exhibit in Holland next year - not yet confirmed.

 

Let me also say that my layout needs a ELWB transit to transport it plus at least one car.  I don't think that the car and its passengers will be a problem - but what about the van?

 

Has anyone had (recent) experience of taking a layout over to the EU in a van - the first problem I've discovered being that most big renters charge a supplement if the van is taken abroad - £300 in the case of Enterprise!! Then there is paperwork - and to add to the confusion, from what I have heard from some people, that paperwork is never looked at, although, of course, they might just have been lucky which doesn't mean that others will be so lucky.

 

Thoughts?

 

Thanks in advance

[Mol_PMB]

Effectively you are exporting something of value (layout, rolling stock etc), and then importing it again. The paperwork is necessary to ensure that you don't get taxed on its value twice. We were once stung by this at work when taking specialist instrumentation to a foreign site and then bringing it back.

 

[fulton]

25 minutes ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

 

 

Has anyone had (recent) experience of taking a layout over to the EU in a van - the first problem I've discovered being that most big renters charge a supplement if the van is taken abroad - £300 in the case of Enterprise!! 

The last time I hired a van to Poland and Germany, I now have my own van and make a trip every couple of months, the hire company were helpful in letting me arrange my own breakdown/recovery insurance, which is what that £300 is basically for, for a fraction of their cost, just had to give them a copy, could be worth asking.

[Bernard Lamb]

I would suggest a search on the forum for carnet.

Then come back with specific questions.

Bernard

[doctor quinn]

The UK process for returned goods relief - taking goods (such as a layout) out of the country and bringing them back is detailed here https://www.gov.uk/taking-goods-out-gb-temporarily

 

I would ask the exhibition organisers to ask the Netherlands customs authority for guidance on temporary imports.

 

 

[SM42]

Surely it depends on where one intends to land on mainland Europe. France may be different to The Netherlands or it may all be the same for Schengen zone entry. 

 

Dont forget that by next year there will also be new entry requirements for the operators ( ETIAS?) which will need organising as its not something that can be done last minute AIUI.

 

If you do decide it is all worth it, ( in my limited experience of shows in Europe; Utrecht some years ago, I would say it will be) then I wish you the best of luck with navigating the bureaucracy involved. 

 

Asking the organisers may well be a good idea anyway as they may have already considered the customs formalities in inviting you. 

 

 

Andy

[MikeB]

Following from what Bernard said, search for "carnet" in the "Buying and Selling Models from Europe" in the German sub-forum.  The main issue is having proof that you will re-import all you export. It is possible, as shown by the layouts from mainland Europe at the Warley show last year, but, like much else,  a lot more paperwork is needed post-Brexit.

 

[bécasse]

It would seem that HMRC have been taking a deliberate "laid-off" attitude to items coming from the EU to the UK (those mainland Europe layouts at Warley, for example) but you can expect EU countries to apply the rules strictly to the letter for layouts going the other way (hence the vast and well-publicised traffic jams at Dover where the French controls are - Dutch controls take place their side of the North Sea).

 

Remember, too, that Customs' checks don't take place just at borders, I regularly see the Belgian Customs undertaking random checks on main roads (and not just on autoroutes, stopping any suspicious vehicle for examination - and any van with one of those "YUK" plates on the back is going to be considered suspect. The British voted to be treated differently - and they are!

[doctor quinn]

22 hours ago, MikeB said:

Following from what Bernard said, search for "carnet" in the "Buying and Selling Models from Europe" in the German sub-forum.  The main issue is having proof that you will re-import all you export. It is possible, as shown by the layouts from mainland Europe at the Warley show last year, but, like much else,  a lot more paperwork is needed post-Brexit.

 

At the UK end it's more a case of proving you've only reimported what you took out. At the other end the tax authority will want to ensure you will re-export everything you take in.

[Neils WRX]

I had an invite to a show in Belgium this year but kindly declined as it seemed I need to document everything and it just seemed too much paperwork and hassle which was a shame.

 

I was going to hire a van rather than use the family car. The view was using a car you’d be unlikely to get stopped but a van you might have issues.

 

Thanks,

 

Neil

[Ninefingers]

18 hours ago, bécasse said:

The British voted to be treated differently - and they are!

 

It's a brave new world...

[SM42]

On 16/02/2024 at 14:37, bécasse said:

It would seem that HMRC have been taking a deliberate "laid-off" attitude to items coming from the EU to the UK (those mainland Europe layouts at Warley, for example) but you can expect EU countries to apply the rules strictly to the letter for layouts going the other way (hence the vast and well-publicised traffic jams at Dover where the French controls are - Dutch controls take place their side of the North Sea).

 

Remember, too, that Customs' checks don't take place just at borders, I regularly see the Belgian Customs undertaking random checks on main roads (and not just on autoroutes, stopping any suspicious vehicle for examination - and any van with one of those "YUK" plates on the back is going to be considered suspect. The British voted to be treated differently - and they are!

 

I've been stopped by customs in central Germany.

 

They seemed surprised I was actually British as were 75% of the car's occupants. 

 

My understanding is that Dutch customs are a lot more fastidious than the French, but as I have no experience of using a carnet on entering France they may be just as fussy with what they may consider as a potentially  small scale commercial traffic. 

 

I'd not want to risk not having the right paperwork at either border. 

 

Andy

[fulton]

On 16/02/2024 at 23:08, Neils WRX said:

 

 

I was going to hire a van rather than use the family car. The view was using a car you’d be unlikely to get stopped but a van you might have issues.

I can understand people being nervous about a trip to mainland Europe, especially in a unfamiliar vehicle, driving on the other side, different driving rules and maybe a language problem, but I can only relate my personnel experience, I drive a van, personal use only, I travel every couple of months, last year drove in France, Belgium, Holland, Germany, Poland and Switzerland. When booking Eurotunnel I tick the box to confirm my van is not carrying commercial goods, it is then treated the same as a car, get checked maybe one in three trips, no questions about what I am carrying, ( part of my layout has travelled to our flat in Dusseldorf and back ) only seem interested in stowaways. As to a carnet, seek advise, I found HMRC help full, then act on the advise. Reminds me when back after Easter to swop my winter tyres, now a requirement in the whole of Germany, some French cities also require an Emissions sticker, easy and cheap to get on line.

[SM42]

Emission rules are a good point as are tyre rules.

Road legal in the UK does not mean road legal in Germany for instance. 

 

Antwerp and Ghent have emission zones that require pre registration,

 

German cities have the Umwelt plakette ( lasts the lifetime of the vehicle, can be purchased from any German city and valid in all. Berlin was one of the cheapest,  cost me €6) and some French cities require a Critique L'air (?). 

 

Research on local rules as well as customs rules would  pay off depending where you are going. 

 

As for driving, the signs are fairly standard across Europe.

There are some oddities like priority to the right, the yellow diamond signs and so on, but nothing too arduous with a bit of research beforehand. 

 

Andy

[bécasse]

"Antwerp and Ghent have emission zones that require pre registration," So does Bruxelles. The three Belgian LEZs use ANPR cameras, if you enter the zone and haven't registered your plate (and paid if necessary), you will receive a huge fine and, unlike the UK where failing to register/pay is a civil offence, the offence is criminal and therefore you can legitimately be identified through your plate number.

 

Wallonie is currently considering making the whole region (ie the whole of southern Belgium) an LEZ, the necessary cameras are already in place and all Belgian and Dutch cars are already registered so it will be easy and quick to implement if the decision is taken to do so.

 

The French LEZs go under the name of Crit'air zones, the number of cities and towns implementing them is growing rapidly - and Genêve in Switzerland is effectively included in the French system. Vehicles hired outside France (vans hired in the UK, for example) are banned from entering Crit'air zones.

 

Countries requiring winter tyres (typically November-March) include Germany, the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg, Switzerland and mountainous areas of France and Italy.

Edited February 18 by bécasse

[RANGERS]

The Road Haulage Association can assist with Carnets and advice on taking vans to Europe

[Modelrailwayquest]

I am taking Brief encounter to Belgium for a show, very confused as it states that a oral confirmation is accepted at customs for professional items going to a commercial exhibition which is not to be sold.  

Edited April 27 by Modelrailwayquest
update

[bécasse]

Officially you need a carnet. Not having one, even if the layout is "hidden" in the boot of your car, risks not only the confiscation of the layout for non-declaration but also of the vehicle. It probably wouldn't happen but it can and it isn't only the French Customs who are a risk but the Belgian Customs, who carry out regular spot checks within the country, too. Remember, the UK got unnecessarily nasty post-Brexit by insisting on the need for passports (which the majority of Europeans, including myself, don't have even if they are rather cheaper than British ones) so for the Customs to find a British vehicle carrying "contraband" would be considered a "good win".

[jjb1970]

Out of interest, what percentage of EU residents have passports? I wouldn't call requiring foreign visitors to have passports nasty given that passports are the normal international travel document. 

[RANGERS]

8 hours ago, bécasse said:

Officially you need a carnet. Not having one, even if the layout is "hidden" in the boot of your car, risks not only the confiscation of the layout for non-declaration but also of the vehicle. It probably wouldn't happen but it can and it isn't only the French Customs who are a risk but the Belgian Customs, who carry out regular spot checks within the country, too. Remember, the UK got unnecessarily nasty post-Brexit by insisting on the need for passports (which the majority of Europeans, including myself, don't have even if they are rather cheaper than British ones) so for the Customs to find a British vehicle carrying "contraband" would be considered a "good win".

There was a requirement pre-Brexit for all EU citizens traveling to the UK to have passports, and vice-Versa.  The only exception was for youth groups, who do now require a full passport.

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

Out of interest, what percentage of EU residents have passports? I wouldn't call requiring foreign visitors to have passports nasty given that passports are the normal international travel document. 

 

Please remember that within the EU (and certainly within the Schengen zone IIRC) National ID cards are usually considered sufficient means of identifying you and confirming your rights as an EU citizen to reside / work / visit that country.

 

As such there are probably a substantial number of people who simply have no need of a Passport because they can still travel to beach resorts on the med or to sking resorts in the alps etc without the need for one!

[jjb1970]

3 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Please remember that within the EU (and certainly within the Schengen zone IIRC) National ID cards are usually considered sufficient means of identifying you and confirming your rights as an EU citizen to reside / work / visit that country.

 

As such there are probably a substantial number of people who simply have no need of a Passport because they can still travel to beach resorts on the med or to sking resorts in the alps etc without the need for one!

 

Not denying that, it's why many US citizens see no need for a passport. However I am not sure nasty is the right word to use if a country requires foreign visitors to hold a valid international travel document. The UK was never part of the Schengen area so not sure why there'd be much of a change on that point.

[phil-b259]

17 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

 

Not denying that, it's why many US citizens see no need for a passport. However I am not sure nasty is the right word to use if a country requires foreign visitors to hold a valid international travel document. The UK was never part of the Schengen area so not sure why there'd be much of a change on that point.

 

I think the point was more that because the UK is now a 'third country' as far as the EU is concerned then various officials might be much more rigorous / inclined to stop Brits for checks than they would have been had we still been an EU member state....

 

As the queues at Dover to clear Passport control have aptly demonstrated simply applying the laws as they are written en-mase (as opposed to applying them selectively) can make a huge difference in practical terms even if, in theory, 'nothing has changed'...

Edited March 8 by phil-b259

[jjb1970]

I don't think anyone can complain about rules being implemented as per applicable laws, but I  don't consider such to be nasty. The UK is not a member of the EU therefore there are entry requirements in both directions the same as anywhere else.

[fulton]

On 08/03/2024 at 05:25, RANGERS said:

There was a requirement pre-Brexit for all EU citizens traveling to the UK to have passports, and vice-Versa. 

Just to clarify pre Brexit EU citizens could enter the UK using their ID card, which is compulsorily to have in some EU countries, so did not need a passport.

Edited March 9 by fulton
correction