Cuckmere Haven - a very small slice of southern electric.

[Flying Pig]

33 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

and I’m even toying with the idea of providing EST&T with their own SG shunting loco, possibly an RH 48DS

 

That sounds like an excellent idea.

[Mol_PMB]

Are you planning to incorporate the East Sussex Transport & Trading's 2ft gauge railway? Possibly a little Ruston shunter and some skip wagons serving the standard gauge loading point, rather than an EST&T standard gauge shunting loco? 

 

Alternatively if you just have the standard gauge with a 48DS or similar, then it needs to have something it can usefully shunt without impinging on the BR(SR) running line. That implies a slightly more complex layout of SG sidings. I've pasted below a couple of pictures of a former sand quarry local to me which used narrow-gauge wagons and loaded sand into standard gauge wagons, and BritainFromAbove nicely shows two iterations of the loading equipment. In both cases there are several images from different angles on BritainFromAbove. The images below show the later version which probably suits your era better, and wouldn't need any representation of the narrow gauge unless you wanted to. Here the narrow-gauge skips are tipped onto a conveyor which raises the sand up to a hopper above the standard gauge wagons. You could just have the conveyor coming from off-scene. The fork in the siding allows empty and loaded wagons to be marshalled, but only a few of them because the sidings are short. This arrangement could be significantly compressed or rearranged without losing its essentials, and could surely justify a little diesel shunter?

Image from https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW026042 showing the Ship Canal Sand Company, Eccles, in 1949.

 

https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW026045

 

An alternative earlier version at almost the same location, where the narrow gauge wagons were rope-hauled up an incline and discharged into the standard gauge wagons, with a more complex track layout.: https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EPW051653

 

I hope that sparks some ideas, even if they are in a different direction.

[Nearholmer]

Without this expanding beyond remit (very small and very portable) there isn’t room to get the EST&T NG line in as well. Postwar, they had two MR, and pre-war two quite rare R&R, so no NG RH.

 

This is what I came up with yesterday, which fits while not looking too cramped, and I think looks plausibly like a light railway terminus that has been amended to become the exchange point for an industrial premises. 
 

 

The EST&T loco would propel too here, and haul from, passing under the (imaginary, off-scene) loading hopper with the wagons, so no point work at their premises.

 

Incidentally, there are a few photos of the pre-war EST&T premises, but although I’ve seen photos of the postwar locos, I’ve never found better than this of the ‘works’:

 

 

It had been closed for several years by the time we used to go down there fishing, but I seem to remember there being remnants before it was cleared and turned into a car park.

 

For those who don’t know, mixed sand-gravel aggregate for concrete making used to be called “beach” in Sussex, because that’s what it was, and I remember the excitement when a lorry came to our house with “two yards of beach”, and being taught the fine art of mixing concrete for shed-bases and paths by my father when I was about 3yo.

 

 

[KeithHC]

This looks like a great idea. On the subject of station buildings what about a variation of those at Devils Dyke.

 

Keith

[Nearholmer]

Depending upon precisely what faux-history we invent for the CVLR before the SR upgrading of the mid/late 1930s, it could well have had typical LR stations, and The Dyke definitely fitted into that mould, but I don’t have room for anything like that, unless in low-relief, which I think would look a bit odd.

 

i did build a layout of The Dyke, in EM, to scale, but it ground to a halt, because I ran out of enthusiasm once I’d laid the track, and spent 20+ years as a winter hotel for field mice, in a shed, before going to recycling.

[GRASinBothell]

You could, of course, emulate the Pride of Sussex flour mill in Robertsbridge, who purchased a P class 0-6-0T to take their materials (presumably grain in and flour out) to the station at Robertsbridge. Traffic lasted into the early 1970s (so just in your timescale). That way, you could use that to bring in the traffic and then have a diesel shunter come down the branch to collect it, adding to the play value...

Gordon

[Nearholmer]

I think I’m hooked on the idea of EST&T having a loco of their own, but i think giving them a steamer would be taking things too far.

 

But, talking of steamers: in 1982, BR decided to close the line, because the sand traffic had disappeared by then, passenger receipts weren’t really growing, and the track, and particularly the bridge across The Cuckmere, were getting to the point of needing serious expenditure.

 

Enter The CVLRPS! A group of earnest young chaps, mostly with beards, who lease the line from BR.

 

The CVLRPS began in the usual way: some clapped-out diesel shunters; some old utility vans; a couple of tatty MK1 suburbans: a Terrier; and, an ex-army Austerity tank that was useable until the boiler ticket expired, with which a shuttle was operated over part of the line. Lots of tense debate with ESCC about level crossings, and the grotty mess of old wagons, and things under flapping tarpaulins that were creating a blot on the landscape at Exceat, but eventually they triumphed, which is how come the line remains open today.

 

I’ve never seen a realistic model of a station yard in early preservation days, when they looked like ill-tended scrap-yards, so that might make quite an interesting optional way of using the layout.

[Metropolitan H]

Will the third rail - wet string - be retained into the preservation era?

 

Regards

Chris H

[Nearholmer]

Tragically not.

 

Right now, though, slap in the middle of the critical path, and obstructing actual, physical progress, is a lack of baseboard alignment dowels, so until I can get to the shop to collect some, all we can do is invent history. In ever greater detail.

 

The way to operate this layout, if ever it gets built, must be as a sort of march through time, aided by the fact that southern stations were painted in the same colors for years on end. We could start in the early 1960s, with green 2-BIL and either a Terrier. P, or a Drewry 0-6-0DS on the sand trains, move through the 1970s with blue EMUs, sequentially BIL/HAL, SR HAP, BR HAP (blue), BR HAP (blue and grey), with an 08/09 for the sand trains, and end with the first stumbling steps of the CVLRPs. Quite how to replicate the slow decay of everything over that span, I’m not sure.

 

 

Edited March 4 by Nearholmer

[phil_sutters]

8 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Yes, one of the many reasons why it’s such an interesting spot is the military remnants. Even in the tiny space I’ve got, I’ll need to include a bit of abandoned military concrete, probably dragon’s teeth are all that I can fit though.

For those unfamiliar with Cuckmere, you can see the military remnants on this page of my other, photosharing, website - http://www.ipernity.com/doc/philsutters/album/514003/@/page:2:18

Edited March 4 by phil_sutters

[Nearholmer]

While we’re in Cuckmere Haven Appreciation Society mode, this zoom-in on a Britain from Above photo is quite interesting.

 

It shows the seaward end of EST&T operations at a very early stage, 1934, when I think they were acting as a contractor to the river authority under their previous name. You can see the dragline excavator, and how the track crosses the river by fording it (I thinks there’s a skip in mid-stream).

I’m not sure whether you can still do it, but it used to be common practice to walk across at roughly this point at low tide.

 

 

The river mouth was “tidied up” in the 1930s, and groynes put in or strengthened, I’m not sure which, to prevent longshore drift stopping-up the river and causing flooding further up stream.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 4 by Nearholmer

[phil_sutters]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

While we’re in Cuckmere Haven Appreciation Society mode, this zoom-in on a Britain from Above photo is quite interesting.

 

It shows the seaward end of EST&T operations at a very early stage, 1934, when I think they were acting as a contractor to the river authority under their previous name. You can see the dragline excavator, and how the track crosses the river by fording it (I thinks there’s a skip in mid-stream).

I’m not sure whether you can still do it, but it used to be common practice to walk across at roughly this point at low tide.

 

 

The river mouth was “tidied up” in the 1930s, and groynes put in or strengthened, I’m not sure which, to prevent longshore drift stopping-up the river and causing flooding further up stream.

The groynes on the beach are just skeletons, where they exist at all. As the river reaches the beach the banks are reinforced and, although somewhat degraded in places, the flow is contained. As far as I am aware there is now nowhere where the 'new cut' is shallow enough to ford, except as it fans out across the beach at low tide. At the southern end of the 'meanders', which are the famed 'oxbow' lakes, there is a stream that empties into the new cut. There is a ford across this stream and some of the meander waters. The Environment Agency at one point was talking about leaving the sea to work its way inland, when the reshaping of the shingle beach, which has happened  a couple of times a year, as at Seaford, would be ceased. 

The current owners of the Coastguard Cottages - those that appear in the foreground of views of The Seven Sisters cliffs - have fought hard to get their homes protected by reinforcing the sea wall beneath them. I don't know where either of those scenarios has got to.

Edited March 4 by phil_sutters

[number6]

Great image of the excavator on the beach. I believe that the river mouth is quite high and the cause of major flooding in the valley in recent years as the water had nowhere to go… higher up stream toward Alfriston it’s regularly underwater for long periods. But that’s what floodplains should be for. This line would be out in the water for parts of the year. 

[melmoth]

15 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

 

We could start in the early 1960s, with green 2-BIL and either a Terrier. P, or a Drewry 0-6-0DS on the sand trains, move through the 1970s with blue EMUs, sequentially BIL/HAL, SR HAP, BR HAP (blue), BR HAP (blue and grey), with an 08/09 for the sand trains, and end with the first stumbling steps of the CVLRPs. Quite how to replicate the slow decay of everything over that span, I’m not sure.

 

 

Build two (or three) identical models of each structure/feature on the layout and finish them in an increasing order of decreptitude. Swap structures according to which era you're operating.

 

It sounds really easy if you say it quickly.

Edited March 5 by melmoth
spelling, as ever

[5BarVT]

2 hours ago, melmoth said:

 

Build two (or three) identical models of each structure/feature on the layout and finish them in an increasing order of decreptitude. Swap structures according to which era you're operating.

 

It sounds really easy if you say it quickly.

And then have all the surrounding scenery in different firms as nature took over (all removable too).

In fact why not build three layouts, so as you don’t have to remove all the stock and variable features to change era . . .

 

:-)

I’ll get back in my box now.
 

Paul.

[Nearholmer]

Anyone recall the four-seasons on the Wisbech & Upwell layout? 

 

I shall “give due consideration” to all of these suggestions.

[phil_sutters]

14 hours ago, number6 said:

Great image of the excavator on the beach. I believe that the river mouth is quite high and the cause of major flooding in the valley in recent years as the water had nowhere to go… higher up stream toward Alfriston it’s regularly underwater for long periods. But that’s what floodplains should be for. This line would be out in the water for parts of the year. 

In the past few weeks this scene has repeated itself - without the kite surfer as far as I have observed. The A259 at that point is basically a causeway. The pinch point for the river is the Exceat bridge. South of the bridge the meanders do flood but water can fairly easily drain away at low tide, although the ground remains very boggy. There is a concrete roadway along the eastern flank from the A259 to within a few hundred yards of the beach.

 

[Nearholmer]

A bit further on.

 

I think this track-plan works for the purpose, and if I resist any temptation to stuff the scene with too many things, it should look spacious in what is a tiny area.

 

Next operation will be “Primer-undercoat; grey; baseboards for the painting of”.

 

 

[zarniwhoop]

On 05/03/2024 at 11:32, melmoth said:

 

Build two (or three) identical models of each structure/feature on the layout and finish them in an increasing order of decreptitude. Swap structures according to which era you're operating.

 

It sounds really easy if you say it quickly.

That would also mean that the signage could change over the years. I think there were one or two places still with green signs when almost everywhere else had gone over to black on white railfont, but if the HAPs will be in NSE livery then white on green sounds extremely rundown.

[St Enodoc]

On 06/03/2024 at 02:02, phil_sutters said:

In the past few weeks this scene has repeated itself - without the kite surfer as far as I have observed. The A259 at that point is basically a causeway. The pinch point for the river is the Exceat bridge. South of the bridge the meanders do flood but water can fairly easily drain away at low tide, although the ground remains very boggy. There is a concrete roadway along the eastern flank from the A259 to within a few hundred yards of the beach.

 

It was rather like that further up, at the A27 Sherman Bridge, during the October 2000 floods.

[Nearholmer]

Last time I drove back from visiting family, early December  last year, the A27 was flooded at that point and multiple others, not deep flooding at that point, maybe three or four inches, but up to sill level in others. Traffic was being permitted on a single-file basis down the crown of the road.

 

It would be super boring to go into more detail, but that trip took seven hours , including a half hour PNB, for 130 miles, and the previous few were similarly dire, so I have now sworn off driving it at all, and will use train, or train and bike if I’m on my own and weather is good, for all trips.

 

I do not intend to build a small layout set during winter flooding, BTW, because I want the little plastic people to look happy.

[phil_sutters]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

 

I do not intend to build a small layout set during winter flooding, BTW, because I want the little plastic people to look happy.

They usually do!

Edited March 12 by phil_sutters

[phil-b259]

On 04/03/2024 at 23:23, phil_sutters said:

The Environment Agency at one point was talking about leaving the sea to work its way inland, when the reshaping of the shingle beach, which has happened  a couple of times a year, as at Seaford, would be ceased. 

 

The last time they did that it resulted in severe flooding up the Cuckmete valley inland (driving along the A259 was more like going across a causeway across a lake) with many of the fields and important marsh environments ruined by being left underwater for months as insufficient water was flowing out into the sea due to the build up of shingle across the river mouth.

 

There was much anger and objection to this turn of events - with many people rightly sending that the environment agency’s motives had nothing to do with ‘letting nature take its course’ and everything to do with saving money!

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Not only happy people, but happy bikes. Here’s mine sunbathing after thrash up to the top of the Downs.

 

[5BarVT]

Fair weather cyclist? Or do you go for the ‘brown line up the back of the jacket’ look?

I used to be an any weather cyclist, now I just cart mudguards around as extra weight!

Paul.