Edwinstowe... ex-'Broomridding Wood'

[t-b-g]

On 22/03/2024 at 22:24, gingerangles said:

Loving that, looks great.  It was the appearance of the track that made me ask about scale.  It really does look good.  I've got my finger hovering over the button on a cart full of the peco bullhead wondering if it's worth the expense.

 

Love the signal box, I'll be needing something very similar 😂... is that the colour the thing would have been for its entire life span or is that a GCR thing?

 

Thanks for the kind words. The colour scheme for the box is the LDECR colour scheme. Although my layout is set just after the GCR takeover, they haven't got around to repainting the buildings yet. I may yet get the urge to backdate the layout to before 1907, so I have my bases covered. The signals are LDECR pattern somersault types too. The GCR replaced those with lower quadrant ones but I don't know when. If you look at the signalboxes on the preserved GCR at Loughborough, you will see the two most common GCR colour scemes. There us a rather garish but very distinctive ( to my eyes anyway!) two tone green livery or a brown and cream. My recollection is that they were originally brown and cream, changed to the green around 1910 and possibly back to brown and cream after a few years. I have seen details and dates somewhere but can't remember where.

[gingerangles]

On 23/03/2024 at 22:46, t-b-g said:

 

Thanks for the kind words. The colour scheme for the box is the LDECR colour scheme. Although my layout is set just after the GCR takeover, they haven't got around to repainting the buildings yet. I may yet get the urge to backdate the layout to before 1907, so I have my bases covered. The signals are LDECR pattern somersault types too. The GCR replaced those with lower quadrant ones but I don't know when. If you look at the signalboxes on the preserved GCR at Loughborough, you will see the two most common GCR colour scemes. There us a rather garish but very distinctive ( to my eyes anyway!) two tone green livery or a brown and cream. My recollection is that they were originally brown and cream, changed to the green around 1910 and possibly back to brown and cream after a few years. I have seen details and dates somewhere but can't remember where.

 

I'm assuming your SB is scratch built as well?  Mind if I ask what materials you use and/or if you favour any particular brands for the brickwork, windows etc?

 

I managed to find a couple of 'colour' photos of the box and station but they were 60s I think.  They show them cream and green colour scheme but TBH the photos look like they could have been post-coloured.

[gingerangles]

Could someone help me try to understand the operation of 9, 11, 13 & 14 on the signal diagram please? 

I think I've got my head round why there are 2 x 9s and 3 x 11s... although it took me unboxing some points (like I needed an excuse 😂)

 

But how can 13 and 14 be separate on the same slip?

 

 

Am I right in saying that No 9s will only allow a maneuver from the Up main (bottom) to the Down main and not onwards to the double crossover?

Scratch that... of course No 11 on the Down main controls that 🙄 

Edited March 26 by gingerangles

[t-b-g]

12 hours ago, gingerangles said:

Could someone help me try to understand the operation of 9, 11, 13 & 14 on the signal diagram please? 

I think I've got my head round why there are 2 x 9s and 3 x 11s... although it took me unboxing some points (like I needed an excuse 😂)

 

But how can 13 and 14 be separate on the same slip?

 

 

Am I right in saying that No 9s will only allow a maneuver from the Up main (bottom) to the Down main and not onwards to the double crossover?

Scratch that... of course No 11 on the Down main controls that 🙄 

 

You would either use 9 to cross over between the main lines or 9 and 11 to cross from the main line into the sidings. 13 and 14 are interesting. In real life, slips didn't necessarily have all 4 blades connected and moving together. On this slip, 11 moves all 4 blades at one end and 13 and 14 move a single pair of blades each at the other end. This gets tricky on a model especially using a ready to lay commercial product. Unless you are insisting on representing the prototype with 100% accuracy, I would suggest ignoring the fact that the real thing had independently working blades and just use one lever rather than two.

[gingerangles]

4 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

You would either use 9 to cross over between the main lines or 9 and 11 to cross from the main line into the sidings. 13 and 14 are interesting. In real life, slips didn't necessarily have all 4 blades connected and moving together. On this slip, 11 moves all 4 blades at one end and 13 and 14 move a single pair of blades each at the other end. This gets tricky on a model especially using a ready to lay commercial product. Unless you are insisting on representing the prototype with 100% accuracy, I would suggest ignoring the fact that the real thing had independently working blades and just use one lever rather than two.

 

Perfect, thanks @t-b-g 👍

 

#13 = Spare then 😁

 

Signal #42 is confusing me also... it seems to have an additional arm coming off it?  I have a pic of it from GCR days... I guess one is the starter signal for the Up Main Platform... any idea what the other is?

 

 

 

Edited March 27 by gingerangles

[t-b-g]

55 minutes ago, gingerangles said:

 

Perfect, thanks @t-b-g 👍

 

#13 = Spare then 😁

 

Signal #42 is confusing me also... it seems to have an additional arm coming off it?  I have a pic of it from GCR days... I guess one is the starter signal for the Up Main Platform... any idea what the other is?

 

 

 

 

That dates back to LDECR times, when the bay was in use and was available for passenger trains. The LH signal was the starter for the bay. The bay was later taken out of use and the signalling altered. You can see the remains of the other doll of the bracket on the signalling diagrams. I can't recall the dates when these changes happened. The signal in the photo is an LDECR bracket, with somersault arms. I have been looking for a decent photo of one of them for a while, so thanks for posting it!

[gingerangles]

55 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

That dates back to LDECR times, when the bay was in use and was available for passenger trains. The LH signal was the starter for the bay. The bay was later taken out of use and the signalling altered. You can see the remains of the other doll of the bracket on the signalling diagrams. I can't recall the dates when these changes happened. The signal in the photo is an LDECR bracket, with somersault arms. I have been looking for a decent photo of one of them for a while, so thanks for posting it!

 

Glad I could reciprocate a little!  

 

If that is the case, what is ground signal 41 used for?  I had assumed that was to release traffic from the bay.

 

Edited March 27 by gingerangles

[t-b-g]

10 minutes ago, gingerangles said:

 

Glad I could reciprocate a little!  

 

If that is the case, what is ground signal 41 used for?  I had assumed that was to release traffic from the bay.

 

 

You are right, 41 is the signal allowing a shunting move from the bay onto the main line. The signal on the bracket would have been for a train departing from the bay, rather than for a shunting move.

[gingerangles]

Bit of modelling practice tonight... if it ends up on the layout, great. If not, so what 🤷‍♂️😂

[gingerangles]

Some baseboard progress 👌

[gingerangles]

Bit more today. Printing 1:1 plans on A4 is a bit of a pain the the 🍑  🤣

[gingerangles]

Sorry... another signalling query... if anyone would oblige me... again... 😂

 

The split distance signals pictured on here - are there 2 on each post or is the diagram indicative of something else?

 

[5BarVT]

That symbol indicates slotting - operation by more than one signalbox.

The lower one is operated by lever 44 in the box for which you have the diagram and the next box along (further to the left).

The upper one is operated by the next two boxes to the right.

It will be because the boxes are close together and there is insufficient braking distance, so both of the relevant boxes need all of their stop signals cleared before the distant can come off.

Only one arm, but more gubbins at the bottom of the post.

Paul.

[t-b-g]

On 31/03/2024 at 17:03, gingerangles said:

Bit more today. Printing 1:1 plans on A4 is a bit of a pain the the 🍑  🤣

 

That is looking very promising. You have really captured the layout of the station nicely.

[gingerangles]

2 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

That symbol indicates slotting - operation by more than one signalbox.

The lower one is operated by lever 44 in the box for which you have the diagram and the next box along (further to the left).

The upper one is operated by the next two boxes to the right.

It will be because the boxes are close together and there is insufficient braking distance, so both of the relevant boxes need all of their stop signals cleared before the distant can come off.

Only one arm, but more gubbins at the bottom of the post.

Paul.

 

That's great, thanks @5BarVT 👍 

Am I right in thinking that all subsequent 'stop' signals have to be at off to allow the distance to also be at off for a given section?  Or in my case here the current and the subsequent section?  So taking signal 44 above, the only circumstances where the distance arm would not be at danger would be if this section and the next section were all set to off?  Essentially the distance signal covers all stop signals between it and the next distance signal effectively.  A train passing signal 44 wont therefore see another distance till the one applicable to the section 2 sections away?

[gingerangles]

2 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

That is looking very promising. You have really captured the layout of the station nicely.

 

Cheers @t-b-g

Have you made me a signal box yet? Gonna need it soon 😂
I've been printing off scale-sized station plans as well in preparation for having a go at that... how's yours coming along?  

[5BarVT]

5 hours ago, gingerangles said:

 

That's great, thanks @5BarVT 👍 

Am I right in thinking that all subsequent 'stop' signals have to be at off to allow the distance to also be at off for a given section?  Or in my case here the current and the subsequent section?  So taking signal 44 above, the only circumstances where the distance arm would not be at danger would be if this section and the next section were all set to off?  Essentially the distance signal covers all stop signals between it and the next distance signal effectively.  A train passing signal 44 wont therefore see another distance till the one applicable to the section 2 sections away?

Almost, but not quite!

All stop signals need to be off before the distant can be cleared - for 44 that means 43, 42 and 40.  But pulling lever 44 won’t actually clear the distant unless the stop arm above it is also off (but only that stop arm).

Going the other way, when the all the stop signals are off at the next box (depending on the routing as it is a splitting distant) the the distant lever can be cleared, but the arm won’t move until 5 is off.  1 requires 2, 3 and 5 off.

 

I’m wondering whether I’m correct about the ‘next two boxes’ for 5 - it may be that the company concerned just used that symbol for any form of slotting and it’s just referring to 5 and one other box.  (In the practice with which I was trained, slotting of lower distants was assumed because there was a stop arm shown, the symbol was only used where it wouldn’t otherwise be apparent - usually stop arms shared by two boxes.)

 

Paul.

[gingerangles]

Thanks Paul, very helpful 👍

 

I'm not sure if the timing aligns track wise @5BarVT but 5 being 2 boxes would make sense as Clipstone Junction (triangle) was next in that direction. So I think the boxes may have been Clipstone East and Clipstone South.

 

If you don't mind a further question... obviously the signal at 44 is simply 1 Lever, yet there are 2 arms... so, am I right in saying Lever 44 operates the stop arm and the distant on 44 operate automatically if 44, 43, 42 and 40 are all off?

[5BarVT]

23 hours ago, gingerangles said:

Thanks Paul, very helpful 👍

 

I'm not sure if the timing aligns track wise @5BarVT but 5 being 2 boxes would make sense as Clipstone Junction (triangle) was next in that direction. So I think the boxes may have been Clipstone East and Clipstone South.

Prompted by the above, I’ve been into NLS maps.  Yes, the distances between the boxes on the triangle mean that requiring all signals clear at both boxes (Clipstone E plus Clipstone S or N (or is it W?)) before clearing the relevant lower distant on 5 is quite possible.

 

23 hours ago, gingerangles said:

If you don't mind a further question... obviously the signal at 44 is simply 1 Lever, yet there are 2 arms... so, am I right in saying Lever 44 operates the stop arm and the distant on 44 operate automatically if 44, 43, 42 and 40 are all off?

Further explanation of slotting required!

Lever 44 will prove 40, 42, 43 reverse using mechanical locking in the box.

At the bottom of the post are three balance levers, one for the stop arm exactly as normal.  This is operated by the lever in Clipstone E and clears the stop arm.  A second operated by lever 44 at Edwinstowe isn’t connected to anything.  In between the two is a third (with the balance weight stuck out in the opposite direction) connected to the distant arm and has a plate that passes across the other two.  That plate prevents the distant arm moving until both of the other balance levers are off.

It’s working as a mechanical .AND. gate - both levers (one in Clipstone E and 44 in Edwinstowe) must be pulled before the distant arm will respond.

Paul.

 

[gingerangles]

58 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

Prompted by the above, I’ve been into NLS maps.  Yes, the distances between the boxes on the triangle mean that requiring all signals clear at both boxes (Clipstone E plus Clipstone S or N (or is it W?)) before clearing the relevant lower distant on 5 is quite possible.

 

Further explanation of slotting required!

Lever 44 will prove 40, 42, 43 reverse using mechanical locking in the box.

At the bottom of the post are three balance levers, one for the stop arm exactly as normal.  This is operated by the lever in Clipstone E and clears the stop arm.  A second operated by lever 44 at Edwinstowe isn’t connected to anything.  In between the two is a third (with the balance weight stuck out in the opposite direction) connected to the distant arm and has a plate that passes across the other two.  That plate prevents the distant arm moving until both of the other balance levers are off.

It’s working as a mechanical .AND. gate - both levers (one in Clipstone E and 44 in Edwinstowe) must be pulled before the distant arm will respond.

Paul.

 

 

Cracking explanation!  Thank you very much Paul.  Presumably any signal with multiple arms indicated and only a single lever number will operate in a similar manner.

[gingerangles]

 

Well... this is a rabbit hole I didn't expect to find myself going down... drawing bricks.

 

What size was an LD&ECR brick anyway? 😂

[gingerangles]

Base board sorting out this weekend. Managed to get the main 3 for the Edwinstowe side all in, levelled (eventually 🤦‍♂️) and with the relief cut outs done for the topography changes. All bolted together. Gave the DCC Concepts alignment dowel things a go but I'm not impressed,the bolts grab it well so not really sure the dowels bring anything to the party.

 

[5BarVT]

9 hours ago, gingerangles said:

Gave the DCC Concepts alignment dowel things a go but I'm not impressed,the bolts grab it well so not really sure the dowels bring anything to the party.

New holes with tightly fitting bolts, probably not.  Depending how often you separate and rejoin the bolt holes will wear.
I think you will be glad you added them in due course.  :-)

Paul.

[gingerangles]

1 hour ago, 5BarVT said:

New holes with tightly fitting bolts, probably not.  Depending how often you separate and rejoin the bolt holes will wear.
I think you will be glad you added them in due course.  :-)

Paul.

I did think that when I was installing them to be honest but I'm not going to be shifting them about a lot. 

I had even considered modelling over the joins and not worrying about it till we move house but I think that would be a choice I'd regret. 😂

 

Do you have any preferred method of rail alignment over joints?

[gingerangles]

Actually started to 1st fix some track yesterday and today...

DCC Concepts foam track bed I'm using, got it laid out and glued down for some of the up and down mains. Then proceeded to wire and put in place some point work and track to see how I got on.

I'm using the peco bullhead with unifrog points... I must say I was ready to follow online instructions relating to cutting links and prepping for the frog wiring but with these it's all done for you! The LH & RH points just need power droppers adding to the rails and a cable adding to the frog wire. The slips actually have dropper links for the frogs and power so it's just a case of adding cables to those. No cutting webbing etc.

On the LH RH points I cut out a peice of webbing right behind the frog which means all the cables are close together... it does mean you have to be careful re polarity mind as the rails are the 'wrong way round' here for my 'black to back' approach.