Edwinstowe Station... LD&ECR

[gingerangles]

Now I have some track work down, and I have been adding track/frog droppers to points and track and have installed motors (physically), I am getting to the point where I would like to wire things up permanently.  

I've trawled through the DCCCs guides and posts on here and on their forum on here but everything either seems either too generic or too specific so thought it best to share the wiring conclusion I had come to and see whats folks here think (I've also stuck a similar thread on their forum).

So... DCCCs Advice #8 states to have a Data/Control Bus with Track Connections off this via a CB.  Got it 👍

 

 

The instructions for the CB shows this arrangement below (I assume although the terminology is slightly askew and "Track Out" is actually the Data/Control Bus)...

 

The Colbalt IP motor wiring is given as follows:

 

 

On the face of it all seems fairly straightforward.  However if Track Connections are made after the Circuit Breaker and the Colbalt IP is wired to the Data/Control bus as described surely using terminal 3 for the point frog on the Colbalt motor is a no-go as it will bridge/bypass the CB?

 

If so how is the point and point motor to be properly wired?  Obviously I want track power to the track droppers on the point and would like the point motor to be connected to the Data/Control Bus... likewise I want switched frogs.  Do I therefore need to wire track power separately into terminals 4 & 5 on the Cobalt IP and the point frog into terminal 6 to provide switched frog separately to powering/controlling the point motor?

 

To me there seems to be a little bit of a disconnect in the advice given... or have I completely missed something?

[5BarVT]

On 26/04/2024 at 12:28, gingerangles said:

On the face of it all seems fairly straightforward.  However if Track Connections are made after the Circuit Breaker and the Colbalt IP is wired to the Data/Control bus as described surely using terminal 3 for the point frog on the Colbalt motor is a no-go as it will bridge/bypass the CB?

Just had to remind myself what arrangement of point droppers you have so as I give you the correct reason for what I’m going to suggest.  Unifrog have a pre isolated frog so using the inbuilt switch won’t bypass the CB - the small frog area will be fed from the ‘accessory’ bus and everything else will go through the CB.  So far so good!

However, the whole point of a separate accessory bus is that if (when!) you run onto a wrongly set point from the V end, the CB isolates the fault and leaves the accessory bus live so that the point can be run to the correct position.  So by using S1 Frog, any short will be between the accessory bus and one side of the CB output.  It all depends on the internal design of the CB whether this will be detected - my (ignorant!) guess is that it will detect a fault on one leg but not the other; but it could be both or neither!

You could wire one via S1 Frog and test to see if the CB operates, or you could assume it won’t and wire up the classic way using S2 with the frog connected to S2-C as you described.

 

On 26/04/2024 at 12:28, gingerangles said:

To me there seems to be a little bit of a disconnect in the advice given... or have I completely missed something?

You’ve only missed something IF the the DCCC iP-CB can detect single sided faults on both legs.  Otherwise your logic is robust.

 

Paul.

[gingerangles]

1 hour ago, 5BarVT said:

Just had to remind myself what arrangement of point droppers you have so as I give you the correct reason for what I’m going to suggest.  Unifrog have a pre isolated frog so using the inbuilt switch won’t bypass the CB - the small frog area will be fed from the ‘accessory’ bus and everything else will go through the CB.  So far so good!

However, the whole point of a separate accessory bus is that if (when!) you run onto a wrongly set point from the V end, the CB isolates the fault and leaves the accessory bus live so that the point can be run to the correct position.  So by using S1 Frog, any short will be between the accessory bus and one side of the CB output.  It all depends on the internal design of the CB whether this will be detected - my (ignorant!) guess is that it will detect a fault on one leg but not the other; but it could be both or neither!

You could wire one via S1 Frog and test to see if the CB operates, or you could assume it won’t and wire up the classic way using S2 with the frog connected to S2-C as you described.

 

You’ve only missed something IF the the DCCC iP-CB can detect single sided faults on both legs.  Otherwise your logic is robust.

 

Paul.

 

Thanks for the detailed response @5BarVT.  I see what you are saying about the CB design, will that same short not also flow through the loco that is causing the short and always short both side of the CB?

I've actually been down to the DCCC stand at MWL24 today and asked them directly about it, apparently the way to do it 'properly' is to use the accessory bus to power/control the point and connections 4,5 & 6 to switch the frog using track power.  Claimed it was in the instructions but if it is I missed it (quite likely).  This would seem to suggest the CB cannot detect single sided faults on both legs.

 

 

[gingerangles]

Finally managed to get a loop all the way round and run a train. About 50% of this is fixed in its final (hopefully) position with the other half just arranged through the fiddle yard and adjacent area just to let me watch this go round for a bit.

 

Now to knuckle down and get the remaining point work and track fitted to the Edwinstowe station section 💪

[gingerangles]

Slowly getting there with point and track installation....

 

Which has got me thinking about the fiddle yard layout and operation. 

• How do others find their set ups? 
• Ladder type layout or a rhombus?
• Odd number of lanes with on accessed by both to allow switching from up to down? 
• Sidings as well as through lines?
• Points mid-way along fiddle tracks?

 

Also... I'm considering how to wire the lanes/tracks of the yard so that, say, selection of 'lane 3' 'would throw all relevant points to give this lane access out/in of the yard - do others do this or is it more complicated than it sounds?  It strikes me as being another 'level' of programming and would need either point motors being given more than one address or controlled by some other means?

I've got some DC Concepts SS Controllers and Motors coming and I know more than one motor can be wired to one controller output but wondered if the above could be achieved by wiring more than one control board to a motor???  EDIT - I've been reliably informed (I think) that this can't be done and needs a non-DCC approach or macros.

 

Edited May 1 by gingerangles

[gingerangles]

3 point motors mounted tonight. And some test printing for the signal box... think I prefer the one on the right.

[gingerangles]

Happy Friday folks... hoping for a BH Weekend containing some work on the layout! 🤞

 

Wondering if folks would mind / fancy giving me the benefit of their experiences in relation to the 'South' side of my layout layout?...  I'd been trying to decide what to do in relation to fiddle yard and potential further scenic areas.  I'd had ideas of 2nd levels, a terminus (perhaps Chesterfield) or 2nd through station (perhaps Bolsover or Scarcliffe), engine shed (perhaps based on Langwith) or some sort of goods area.  But obviously I also need fiddle yard space.

 

Any suggestions on the above and the best use of the space identified below (blue box) would be gratefully received!

How do others find the best layout of fiddle yards?  It would be really easy to plonk the fiddle yard in the middle of the blue box and say thats that but I think I can do better with the area available.  

I cant help but feel I'm going to lose a lot in the corners also - should I be looking to use these to say have storage sidings?

 

The image below is what I'm dealing with, stuff in the green box is set - this is the 'Edwinstowe' scenic section.  The orange boxes are semi-set... the one on the left is the planned 'Carr Vale Viaduct' the on on the right is non-scenic and simply connects the top and bottom boards.  The blue boxes are completely up for grabs in terms of what I do, currently all are on the same level.

 

I've googled and 'youtubed' fiddle yard design with disappointing results so hoping for better luck with you kind folks 😁

 

Will upload some actual pictures later as well.

 

[stivesnick]

Hi 

 

In terms of the fiddle yard design, I would be worth trying to answer the following questions.

 

1. Will the trains you run be based on the actual timetable, loosley based on the timetable or run anything you want?

2. Based on the reponse to Q1 - how many trains will you need? The fiddle yard should ideally have some spare tracks because you always end up with more stock than you inteneded

3. Are any trains terminating at the station (passenger or freight)? If so they will also likely need to reverse in the fiddle yard so you will need crossovers and tracks that are easy to access to remarshall the stock if needed. Reversing tracks might be better at the front close to the nbaseboard edge

3. Will other trains need to reverse in the fiddle yard beacuse there is only one set of stock and the train should operate in both directions. 

4. What length is the longest train? Could two smaller trains that you need fit in the same length? 

 

With regard to including other features, I would tend to keep it simple. Avoid including an engine shed, unless there was actually one close to the station and there were trains that terminated at the station or some other facility on the model that needed to run to/from the engine shed for servicing.

 

Once you have through about these questions, the requirements for the fiddle yard should be clearer and people on this forum can offer more advice if needed

 

Hope this helps.

 

Nick 

[gingerangles]

Hi @stivesnick, thanks for the response!

 

1. I am planning to run to an actual timetable / schedule... most likely something loosely based on reality.  I need to look onto this but feel a million miles away from it - not least because I am still yet to settle on a period/era - I am thinking either at the crossover between LDEC & GCR or GCR and LNER as it stands but would hope to be able to include both terminating and through passenger services as well as through freights and pickup goods.    
2. I would like a good amount of fiddle yard because I do want a good mixture of trains (i) to match the timetabled running and (ii) to allow storage of some 'not in keeping/just for fun' things.  I'd like to think I'd got plenty of room to accommodate this... but then again maybe not! lol  
3. I will have terminating trains at Edwinstowe yes.  I see what you mean about restocking in the fiddle yard and the potential benefit of crossovers - presumably before and after the sets of fiddle lines?  I'm obviously going to be building up rolling stock over time and ideally will end up with sufficient separate trains to run without duplication - but this'll be an ever changing picture I guess?
4. I'd like to make sure I have room for 6/7 carriage trains / long coal trains typical in periods later than I am modelling just to make sure if I drift periods wise in the future the fiddle yard will accommodate it.  to my mind these need to be about 1.8m - which is the length of the multiple red lines/tracks bottom left in the image FYI.  Two smaller trains in one lane is a definite possibility.  Which I guess also adds to the need for run arounds and shunting potential in the fiddle yard?

 

The station layout was chosen because it looked like there was good potential for interest but I must admit, now I am at the point of trying to determine what that is I am a little lost.  As others have indicated here the layout causes some complications that must have been overcome, terminating services approaching from the left on the UP and reversing into the Down platform for instance with the engine then running round for the return maybe.  Getting goods over into the cattle bay. etc.

 

I have reference materials with timetables but obviously those only give me the passenger train info.

 

Is a ladder style fiddle yard layout a good starting point?  I'd get a good 13/14 tracks in I think top to bottom and could take up all of that one side if necessary.  

[James Harrison]

Personally I'd be giving consideration to a scenic fiddle yard (or two).  

 

If you're heading west from Edwinstowe you pretty quickly reach the junction with the Mansfield Railway (opened 1917) and then the Clipstone colliery concentration sidings.  I think I'd model part of that - or something inspired by it - as a fiddle yard.   One of your corners you could also model the triangular junction between the LDECR and the Mansfield Railway, either as a dummy or use it as storage for a couple of trains. 

 

I think I'd then play fast and loose with real world geography and model Chesterfield Market Place at the other end, which might mean having a double deck layout down one side but it would also mean that operationally trains are running to and from destinations rather than just parading through. 

 

It's ambitious - perhaps too ambitious - but it'd make good use of the space.

[gingerangles]

Thanks for the reply @James Harrison 👍

 

You must be on my wavelength as I had had a passing thought about the Clipstone triangle. 

 

I'd love to stretch the use of the space if I can... a 2nd level would be great to have the Chesterfield terminus. I just don't know how I'd get 'up and down' given my baseboard progress so far. Nothing that can't be undone I know but I am also working between loft rafters which does make some of the space awkward so would have to be sure any changes would likely work.

I had messed with the idea of having 2 loops round the room with the extra length of tracks to give nice long inclines... a kind of folded over figure of 8 if you know what I mean. I'm faced with either going over or under the edwinstowe boards if thos is to be achieved however.

 

I'll get some pics uploaded and hopefully that'll give more context for comments...

[gingerangles]

Right, apologies for the absolute state as I'm a few days overdue a tidy up... but hopefully this'll give some idea...

 

1st image looking towards Chesterfield along the edwinstowe boards.

 

2nd and 3rd are Carr Vale viaduct board connection.

 

4th is the bottom boards and where I had fiddle yard / potential other scenic area.

 

5th is the RHS board connection.

[James Harrison]

Ah, I see what you mean about space being awkward with the roof rafters.  It would be a fair bit of work to alter it to get the two levels in and you'd have some walloping gradients to contend with too, unless you did the loop thing you mentioned.  Personally I'm not keen on long runs of hidden track, too much potential for a nightmare recovery if a train stops in the middle of it. 

 

So accepting that ideally you've got a single-level oval of track, to my mind what happens on the fiddleyard side, assuming you want to make as much of it scenic as possible, still has to look credible - things start to look a bit out of balance if trains pass through a scale-length station and then into a noticeably less than scale-length scene.  So anything 'scenic and operational' on the fiddleyard side should be of comparable scale as Edwinstowe itself, to maintain as aesthetic balance.  Note - I'm merely saying here what my approach would be, after trying to square the same circle repeatedly with my own layout design.  Your thoughts on visual balance between scenes may vary!  

 

Coming back to my earlier post, which one of the two scenes would I go for?  I think it would have to be Chesterfield Market Place, with a couple of tracks round the back to complete the oval.  Operational potential to make trains go from 'A' to 'B' whilst also allowing continuous running, plenty of siding space for storing stock and the opportunity to do some 'big flair' architectural modelling. 

[Enterprisingwestern]

On 03/05/2024 at 21:37, gingerangles said:

Right, apologies for the absolute state as I'm a few days overdue a tidy up..

 

Aren't we all??

 

Mike.

[gingerangles]

16 hours ago, James Harrison said:

Ah, I see what you mean about space being awkward with the roof rafters.  It would be a fair bit of work to alter it to get the two levels in and you'd have some walloping gradients to contend with too, unless you did the loop thing you mentioned.  Personally I'm not keen on long runs of hidden track, too much potential for a nightmare recovery if a train stops in the middle of it. 

 

So accepting that ideally you've got a single-level oval of track, to my mind what happens on the fiddleyard side, assuming you want to make as much of it scenic as possible, still has to look credible - things start to look a bit out of balance if trains pass through a scale-length station and then into a noticeably less than scale-length scene.  So anything 'scenic and operational' on the fiddleyard side should be of comparable scale as Edwinstowe itself, to maintain as aesthetic balance.  Note - I'm merely saying here what my approach would be, after trying to square the same circle repeatedly with my own layout design.  Your thoughts on visual balance between scenes may vary!  

 

Coming back to my earlier post, which one of the two scenes would I go for?  I think it would have to be Chesterfield Market Place, with a couple of tracks round the back to complete the oval.  Operational potential to make trains go from 'A' to 'B' whilst also allowing continuous running, plenty of siding space for storing stock and the opportunity to do some 'big flair' architectural modelling. 

 

I'm not sure @James Harrison I think the split level has merit, just not sure how to achieve it.  

Below is a mock up of Chesterfield Market Place in the lower RH corner of the space I have available...

 

 

Hopefully you get the gist... the Edwinstowe layout is a previous iteration and is not what I eventually settled on.  To my mind, this could actually be easily elevated and, being a terminus, I wouldn't have to worry about the track lowering back down from this as a result - it seemed that it would make sense to have the fiddle under this then some how?

 

I think my preference if to have a non-scenic yard, I'm going to end up with a lot of varied stock I think and 'just for fun stuff' that want to be out of the way as it will look out of place otherwise.

 

I'm wondering if I couldn't achieve it with the raised Market place running from a set of points positioned bottom left?  Possibly with the double loop plan to easy the gradients / give longer running...

 

 

[James Harrison]

I think your pair of (I assume old OS maps) extracts and the second block plan make good sense.  It's interesting to see how Edwinstowe, even being 'just' a country station, is still as large as Chesterfield MP, looking at platform lengths.  And is actually larger if you're measuring between station limits. 

 

I think it's definitely got potential. 

[stivesnick]

1 hour ago, gingerangles said:

Below is a mock up of Chesterfield Market Place in the lower RH corner of the space I have available.

 

Will you be including part of the goods yard - it looks rather large? Also worth noting the double track line to the station.

 

Nick

[gingerangles]

35 minutes ago, James Harrison said:

I think your pair of (I assume old OS maps) extracts and the second block plan make good sense.  It's interesting to see how Edwinstowe, even being 'just' a country station, is still as large as Chesterfield MP, looking at platform lengths.  And is actually larger if you're measuring between station limits. 

 

I think it's definitely got potential. 

 

Agreed, I think (hope) Edwinstowe is a lovely subject model 👍

[gingerangles]

16 minutes ago, stivesnick said:

 

Will you be including part of the goods yard - it looks rather large? Also worth noting the double track line to the station.

 

Nick

 

Well... now there's a thought! 😃

 

I wasn't planning to no... but... 😆

[gingerangles]

Here's another one for you all...

 

No bullhead catch points available AFAIK. So do I use std streamline or not bother with them?...

 

 

[5BarVT]

2 hours ago, gingerangles said:

No bullhead catch points available AFAIK. So do I use std streamline or not bother with them?...

Make a dummy one.  See Mid Cornwall Lines by St. Enodoc to see how.  His are FB rail, but the same principal applies.

Paul.

[gingerangles]

50 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

Make a dummy one.  See Mid Cornwall Lines by St. Enodoc to see how.  His are FB rail, but the same principal applies.

Paul.

 

Blimey... that's one long thread - looks to have a lot of good stuff in it mind having only scanned the 1st 8!  I'll take a look through the 300 odd pages later.

[5BarVT]

5 hours ago, gingerangles said:

 

Blimey... that's one long thread - looks to have a lot of good stuff in it mind having only scanned the 1st 8!  I'll take a look through the 300 odd pages later.

There is a lot!

A quick search on Trap Point gave this recent-ish example.  Last photo shows it.

Paul.

Edited Sunday at 21:00 by 5BarVT
Link to example.

[gingerangles]

Cheers @5BarVT... saved me a bit of searching. Looks quite straightford. Although he looks to be generally building his own track anyway.

 

Dont suppose it has to be perfect... just give the effect.

[St Enodoc]

9 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Make a dummy one.  See Mid Cornwall Lines by St. Enodoc to see how.  His are FB rail, but the same principal applies.

Paul.

Thanks Paul - but they're all bullhead actually!