Aftermarket Decoders

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Carver Bridge TMD said:

Just put this in Sir Gwynedd class 47. On step one it stutters but doesn't really move, on step two it jumps to a scale 40mph and tries to throw itself on the floor. I'll put this one in the 'do not recommend' pile for you...

Have you done any setting up?

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

1 hour ago, Carver Bridge TMD said:

Just put this in Sir Gwynedd class 47. On step one it stutters but doesn't really move, on step two it jumps to a scale 40mph and tries to throw itself on the floor.

But what happens when you adjust the basic motor control CV's? That's what's crucial, does it have a useful adjustment range?

[Izzy]

13 hours ago, Carver Bridge TMD said:

Just put this in Sir Gwynedd class 47. On step one it stutters but doesn't really move, on step two it jumps to a scale 40mph and tries to throw itself on the floor. I'll put this one in the 'do not recommend' pile for you...

 

Just as a matter of interest I've just looked up these ANE decoders in JMRI/Decoder Pro. I thought that maybe there would be a few odd tweaks you could try. I was wrong going by the profiles available. No motor control adjustment at all. And precious little else besides. Just speed curve adjustment through the two normal modes, V min/mid/max and the full range.  So very basic indeed. At the price paid that makes them to my mind extremely expensive on the VFM scale compared to such as the likes of Zimo.

 

Bob

Edited April 17 by Izzy
add decoder make

[Suzie]

3 hours ago, 08221 said:

May be set to 28 speed steps instead of 128. I've had that with a few new decoders of different brands...

 

That is a controller setting and not a decoder setting.

[Torper]

I can only report what I found when I personally used a Lais 21-pin decoder on a standard Bachmann loco.   I'm not fussed about adjusting motor control, etc, as I expect decent decoders to work straight out of the box.  It's obviously a useful thing to have, however, and the Lais I have apparently has fully adjustable motor control but I didn't need to use it as the decoder worked stright away - if I had the knowledge and equipment I'd post a video showing just how smoothly the loco operates from a crawl upwards.  As to what it can do, I regard Digitrains as a highly reputable retailer who would not willingly stock rubbish (apart from anything else they wouldn't want to deal with a load of returns), and the specifications of the Lais 80019 21-pin decoder are here: https://www.digitrains.co.uk/860019.html. (I see they've sold 11 since I looked yesterday).  For some other reviews, google "Lais 21-pin review" or just have a look here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/urw/Laisdcc-860019-Motor-4-Function-DCC-Decoder-Onboard-MTC-21-pin-Plug-UK-Stock/product-reviews/1364785147?_itm=192663560339.  They can't all be wrong.  Other cheap decoders may not be so good.

 

I've also fitted a Lais Kung-Fu decoder to a kit-built steam loco and it too worked fine. 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 17 by Torper
Typos

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

12 hours ago, Torper said:

I'm not fussed about adjusting motor control, etc, as I expect decent decoders to work straight out of the box.

Useful statement that. We would talk straight past each other in respect of what matters to each of us.

 

My Morley DC gear worked straight out of the box, good DCC decoders likewise worked out of the box. Thus far, no benefit from making the change to DCC

 

What sold me on DCC was the customisation it enabled. Adjustment of system output, motor control characteristics, speed curves and inertia settings enables matching of locos into groups that operate uniformly. Every loco starts with a dead slow creep into motion, and likewise stops smoothly. By matched group all the locos are uniform throughout the speed range up to scale for maximum speed. That was the step forward in control that DC could not deliver when using a mixture of kit and RTR mechanisms from multiple sources.

[Torper]

As you say, a considerable difference as to what matters.  I have no desire for my locos to operate uniformly, but there again I only have a branch terminus which I can operate as being in either the early 1950s or the early 60s, and there are no duplicate locos - oops, I tell a lie, I've got two class 24s.  What I want my locos to do is to run well and as most of them are kit built that's sometimes a problem, which is down to me , not any decoder.  For my 1960s diesel era my locos are fitted with Zimo ActiveDrive sound decoders, and they really add a new dimension to driving a loco which I find most satisfying.  Unfortunately, at £115+ each I can't afford them for my more numerous steam fleet and for them all I need is a decoder that runs well.

[Carver Bridge TMD]

Update: Having played with the very limited CV options, I've managed to get speed steps 1 and 2 to work as a very slow crawl, but it immediately lurches to medium speed at step 3 regardless of what the curve settings or the acceleration settings are set to. I suspect this one is going in the circular file, followed by an order for a Bachmann decoder, since this is a Bachmann 47 it's for.

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Carver Bridge TMD said:

an order for a Bachmann decoder, since this is a Bachmann 47 it's for.

Not exactly an overwhelming need to do that.

This would be my choice at the budget end:

https://www.dcctrainautomation.co.uk/train-o-matic-lokommander-2-mini-mtc21-m21.html

 

They are very well specified and work extremely competently.

 

[Torper]

It would appear from Bachmann's website that their latest 21-pin decoder is the 36-557A which is made by ESU.  They retail it at £39.95 which seems expensive for a non-sound decoder, but it apparently offers F2 braking - I have to confess that I wasn't aware that any non-sound decoders had that facility.  On that basis I'd be very tempted to go for it, but I wouldn't buy it from Bachmann as you can get it for about £31 from some retailers, e.g. Rails.

[Torper]

15 hours ago, Carver Bridge TMD said:

Update: Having played with the very limited CV options, I've managed to get speed steps 1 and 2 to work as a very slow crawl, but it immediately lurches to medium speed at step 3 regardless of what the curve settings or the acceleration settings are set to. I suspect this one is going in the circular file, followed by an order for a Bachmann decoder, since this is a Bachmann 47 it's for.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by the "circular file", but if you intend to bin all four that you bought I'd first test another one on your loco just to ensure that the first one wasn't faulty.  In any event, if you've bought faulty products for £50 you shouldn't just accept it - take it up with DGElectech.  Did you buy the decoders from them at Warley?  If you did you have additional rights against them as the retailer as decoders that don't work are not fit for purpose.  All too often railway modellers are not very good at asserting their consumer rights.

 

I've just had another thought.  DGElectech sell their ANE manufactured decoders at £20.99 each, five for £99.  At £50 for four, you got ypour for £12.50 each.  I wonder if they're fakes?

Edited April 18 by Torper

[Izzy]

10 hours ago, Torper said:

It would appear from Bachmann's website that their latest 21-pin decoder is the 36-557A which is made by ESU.  They retail it at £39.95 which seems expensive for a non-sound decoder, but it apparently offers F2 braking - I have to confess that I wasn't aware that any non-sound decoders had that facility.  On that basis I'd be very tempted to go for it, but I wouldn't buy it from Bachmann as you can get it for about £31 from some retailers, e.g. Rails.

I believe - not entirely sure of the necessary parameters (firmware versions onward)  - that all the recent Zimo standard ( non-sound) decoders can be set to have braking on F2. Got the details, cv changes required, somewhere. Sure others could confirm this.

Of course this is also another advantage of Zimo’s. With suitable equipment, (say a Roco Z21), you can update the firmware on them to the latest spec if you want/need to. Or get a dealer to do it. 
 

Bob

[Carver Bridge TMD]

1 hour ago, Torper said:

 

I'm not sure what you mean by the "circular file", but if you intend to bin all four that you bought I'd first test another one on your loco just to ensure that the first one wasn't faulty.  In any event, if you've bought faulty products for £50 you shouldn't just accept it - take it up with DGElectech.  Did you buy the decoders from them at Warley?  If you did you have additional rights against them as the retailer as decoders that don't work are not fit for purpose.  All too often railway modellers are not very good at asserting their consumer rights.

 

I've just had another thought.  DGElectech sell their ANE manufactured decoders at £20.99 each, five for £99.  At £50 for four, you got ypour for £12.50 each.  I wonder if they're fakes?

They were bought from warley, and I've not had a problem with the others, i don't believe. They're installed and I'm not certain in which locos, which implies they're working OK. 

[Carver Bridge TMD]

10 hours ago, Torper said:

It would appear from Bachmann's website that their latest 21-pin decoder is the 36-557A which is made by ESU.  They retail it at £39.95 which seems expensive for a non-sound decoder, but it apparently offers F2 braking - I have to confess that I wasn't aware that any non-sound decoders had that facility.  On that basis I'd be very tempted to go for it, but I wouldn't buy it from Bachmann as you can get it for about £31 from some retailers, e.g. Rails.

I've already offered a couple from TMC for £33 each for other locos so I'll see how they get on

[Carver Bridge TMD]

14 hours ago, melmerby said:

Not exactly an overwhelming need to do that.

This would be my choice at the budget end:

https://www.dcctrainautomation.co.uk/train-o-matic-lokommander-2-mini-mtc21-m21.html

 

They are very well specified and work extremely competently.

 

Thank you, I'll give one of them a try

[Railpassion]

I bought an Imperium decoder from digitrains at the York show. An 8 function 21 pin for a Dapol 22 in 00. 

 

I took it back as the cab lights flashed and it wouldn't address from 3. 

They helpfully readdressed it and told me to reset the CVs for lighting. 

Having done this the loco now runs erratically, stopping every six inches then suddenly racing off on full power.

 

The cab lights still flash on when addressed. 

My recommendation is not to touch any Dapol Imperium decoders.

 

[melmerby]

11 hours ago, Torper said:

I'd be very tempted to go for it,

 

As I posted above, Lokommader 2 (£24 for 21 pin) are extremely good and have more options than I could ever use.

They also have extremely good motor control and include Railcom.

The Plux ones are even cheaper. such as Plux 16

 

They are also made in the EU

 

Defintitely worth trying. The couple of 21 pins  I bought worked great.

 

 

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

1 hour ago, Carver Bridge TMD said:

They were bought from warley, and I've not had a problem with the others, i don't believe. They're installed and I'm not certain in which locos, which implies they're working OK. 

In which case, worth trying a reset on the problem decoder, until it reverts to address 03. Always worth a try.

[Torper]

57 minutes ago, melmerby said:

 

As I posted above, Lokommader 2 (£24 for 21 pin) are extremely good and have more options than I could ever use.

 

So do the Lais and they're only £13.50.  However, neither of these have F2 braking which I feel adds considerably to the fun of driving one's loco.  And as Bob points out and a little rearch confirms (thanks Bob) many Zimo non-sound decoders have this facility, but it does require a bit of fiddling around with CVs .  It's a pity they don't mention it - I've just had a look at Digitrain's selection of Zimo non-sound decoders and there's no mention of F2 braking but there are articles on this site that show how it can be done..

Edited April 18 by Torper

[melmerby]

34 minutes ago, Torper said:

So do the Lais and they're only £13.50. 

I would never buy Lais due to their "History"

[Torper]

There are lots of things I might not buy because of their or their country's misdeeds - for example, I used to apply a strict embargo on South African goods, but once apartheid was consigned to the history books I was quite happy to purchase South African.  Lais decoders are now sold all over the world, including in countries that take a pretty dim view of Chinese counterfeit goods - indeed, I understand that there was a ban on their being imported into the UK at one stage.  As they are now so generally available, including in the USA, I can only only assume that any dispute with TCS has now been settled, and certainly the current generation of Lais decoders are very much their own products and they are sold by retailers whom I'm sure would not countenance selling them if there was an ongoing dispute about piracy.  Presumably you wouldn't buy Lais Stay-Alives either?

[Carver Bridge TMD]

2 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

In which case, worth trying a reset on the problem decoder, until it reverts to address 03. Always worth a try.

I will try that one more time, but since I've already fiddled with a lot of relevant settings to no benefit, i have my doubts. No harm in trying, of course

[Mike Buckner]

If it ends up that you cannot get satisfaction from or a replacement for the dud one, it might be worth checking if the function pins/wires are operational - for example to use in lighting a coach. You may need to put a resistor across the motor terminals to program it successfully.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Torper said:

  Presumably you wouldn't buy Lais Stay-Alives either?

I don't use stay alives anyway. Never found the need.

[Kaput]

7 hours ago, Railpassion said:

I bought an Imperium decoder from digitrains at the York show. An 8 function 21 pin for a Dapol 22 in 00. 

 

I took it back as the cab lights flashed and it wouldn't address from 3. 

They helpfully readdressed it and told me to reset the CVs for lighting. 

Having done this the loco now runs erratically, stopping every six inches then suddenly racing off on full power.

 

The cab lights still flash on when addressed. 

My recommendation is not to touch any Dapol Imperium decoders.

 

 

Pretty sure the 8 function Imperium is the wrong type of function output for the Class 22 and it needs the original Imperium 1 (6 function).