What were the typical loco allocations for the Jellicoe Specials for each company that ran them?

[OnTheBranchline]

-GWR would take the specials from Pontypool Road to Warrington

-LNWR would take the specials from Warrington to Carisle

-North British and Caledonian railways would then take the train to Grangemouth

[The Stationmaster]

GWR trains to Warrington via Hereford  and Chester were originally planned (the plan drawn up in 1911) to be worked to Warrington by 28XX.  What happened under the pressures of wartime might well have resulted in other engines working some of the trains.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

The up empty wagon train in the loop at the time of Quintinshill accident was almost certainly a "Jellicoe" (the nine wagons mentioned in the accident report are all from Cardiff, and the train was called a "special"), but I haven't found any mention of the locomotive type.

[DOCJACOB]

I seem to recall it was 48 on coal train & attach some images. 
 

The “Jellicoe’s” would also head to Invergorden & further North for Scapa?? 
 

This would be via Highland (generally single track & under immense pressure WW 1 

[DOCJACOB]

Last paragraph 

[pH]

There are two different services being discussed here:

 

- the London-Thurso via Rosyth passenger service for naval personnel

- the South Wales to Rosyth, Invergordon and Thurso (for Scapa) coal trains

 

I think the OP was asking about the coal trains.

 

Welsh coal naval specials went elsewhere in Scotland too. Some, at least, went to Greenock via the G&SWR. 
 

 

Edited April 24 by pH

[Michael Hodgson]

25 minutes ago, pH said:

There are two different services being discussed here:

 

- the London-Thurso via Rosyth passenger service for naval personnel

- the South Wales to Rosyth, Invergordon and Thurso (for Scapa) coal trains

 

I think the OP was asking about the coal trains.

 

Welsh coal went elsewhere in Scotland too. Some, at least, went to Greenock via the G&SWR. 
 

 

I believe the original use of the term Jellicoe was strictly the coal trains supplying the fleet in WW1, and named after the Admiral.

 

But the term seems to have entered general usage and was also applied fairly widely to troop trains (not necessarily naval personnel) to Thurso for the fleet at Scapa Flow.  Similar services also ran during WW2 as my father talked about being sent on one of the Jellicoes to get to various airfields along the Moray coast, presumably changing at Inverness.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

4 hours ago, DOCJACOB said:

I seem to recall it was 48 on coal train & attach some images. 

48 was double-heading the down express with 140.

121 was on the up troop train.

907 was on the down local.

 

There was a down goods train in the down loop, and an up special of empty wagons (presumably a "Jellicoe") which was admitted into the up loop after the passenger train was crossed over to the up main, but I don't know the loco of either. The driver of the down goods said their engine was six-coupled with steam brake on loco and tender, but the driver of the up empties didn't say anything about their engine.

[Morello Cherry]

There was a backtrack article recently (within the last 5 years I reckon) on them but i can't remember more.

 

Hamilton (1967) has a couple of pages on them and the routings and some stuff on the wagons. He also says that pressure of demands on GWR locos meant that later on some were routed away from the GWR. He also has a lot about the trains for trains for navy personel.

 

There is a photo on (p.81) of a Jellicoe Special which is reportedly the only one of one. It shows a 0-8-0 Webb compound being banked up Shap. Sadly the Quintinshill report is as far as i can tell silent on what was hauling the empty wagon train.

[Morello Cherry]

Here is the only photo I've seen which has identified the train as a Jellicoe Special. This is the image that appears

 

Hamilton says the wagons were hired by the Admiralty from a single firm. Initially 4000 wagons but it rose to 16,000. Hamilton wonders where they came from but assumes they had been on lease of various collieries.

 

There were 6000 Jellicoe Specials during the war. The greatest number on a single day was 19.

 

Initial routing:

 

• GWR Pontypool Rd - Hereford-Shrewsbury-Chester-Warrington -> LNWR -> Carlisle -> Caledonian or North British to Grangemouth.

 

By October 1915 it was necessary to route away from the LNWR. Half were then diverted via the East Coast at York.

 

• By Patricroft - L&Y to Normanton - N.E from Normanton

 

Then the East Coast asked for relief so some were routed:

 

• L&Y via Blackburn to Hellifield and M.R over the S&C

 

Finally in 1918 the GWR asked for relief and two further routes were used:

 

• via Brecon and Merthyr and Cambrian via Tal-y-lyn and Moat Lane Junctions to rejoin the GWR at Gobowen.
• via Cardiff to Gloucester and then by the MR.

 

But in answer to your question,  Jellicoe specials depending on where and when they were could be hauled by locos from the:

 

GWR

LNWR

CR

NBR

L&Y

NE

MR

Cambrian

B&M

 

The journey generally took 48 hours so you can do the maths as to how many trains would be in transit + loading/prepping unloading/prepping at any one point in time and how many locos would be required.

Edited Thursday at 21:23 by Morello Cherry

[Nick Holliday]

On 01/05/2024 at 15:06, Morello Cherry said:

There was a backtrack article recently (within the last 5 years I reckon) on them but I can't remember more.

I can't recall the BackTrack article, but the whole subject of the Jellicoe trains is covered by Keith Turton in the superb and much missed Railway Archive magazine, in Issues 19 & 20, nearly 60 pages of information, with extensive follow-up from Edward Talbot et al, in Issue 23. Too much to condense here, but one point that doesn't seem to have been noted is that Grangemouth wasn't the only destination for these coal trains, with other ports, such as Immingham, receiving vital fuel supplies for the fleet, although much of the South Wales coal continued to be shipped northwards.  Keith Turton also suggests that the coal trains didn't go further north than Grangemouth, as the Highland Railway mainline couldn't handle the traffic, leaving it available for the equally vital passengers.

[Morello Cherry]

Sounds an interesting read.

 

I've done some checking and it looks like there was a backtrack article in 2006 but I am sure I have read something more recently.

 

Vol 20 pp.498

 

Coals to Newcastle?- Martin Bodman describes the movement of coal to the Grand Fleet at Scapa Flow during World War I.

 

FWIW - Steamindex has a good precis of the Turton article (which I will try to check out)

https://steamindex.com/archive/rlyarch2.htm#19-2

[Morello Cherry]

11 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

I can't recall the BackTrack article, but the whole subject of the Jellicoe trains is covered by Keith Turton in the superb and much missed Railway Archive magazine, in Issues 19 & 20, nearly 60 pages of information, with extensive follow-up from Edward Talbot et al, in Issue 23. Too much to condense here, but one point that doesn't seem to have been noted is that Grangemouth wasn't the only destination for these coal trains, with other ports, such as Immingham, receiving vital fuel supplies for the fleet, although much of the South Wales coal continued to be shipped northwards.  Keith Turton also suggests that the coal trains didn't go further north than Grangemouth, as the Highland Railway mainline couldn't handle the traffic, leaving it available for the equally vital passengers.

 

I've looked again at Hamilton.

 

2.5 million tons went to Scapa Flow

800,000 tons went to Immingham

There was a flow from South Yorkshire to the Destroyer base at Harwich.

 

The trains were 40 wagons long and 600 tons.

 

There is also a discussion of the passenger trains. The London-Thurso train included a sleeping car for officers as far as Inverness and a prison coach. It was corridor throughout.

 

One final set of services:

 

Portsmouth to Invergordon via Basingstoke - Oxford - Birmingham Snow Hill - LNWR at Bushbury

Plymouth to Invergordon via the Severn Tunnel

 

Plymouth North Rd: 9.45am

Taunton 12.25-12.55 (for dinner)

Shrewsbury 5.50pm-6.30 (for supper)

Perth 3.50-4.30am

Invergordon 10.30am

 

Portsmouth service paused for meals at Basingstoke and Birmingham.

 

The two services connected at Crewe.

 

London - Thurso timetable.

 

Euston 18.00 dep

Crewe 21.08 - 21.22

Preston 22.28 -22.31

Carlisle 00.33 - 00.40

Harwick 01.52 - 02.00

Edinburgh Waverley 03.18 - 03.38

Inverkeithing 04.05 - 04.11

Perth 05.12 - 05.18

Inverness 09.20 - 09.55

Alness 10.52 - 10.55

Invergordon 11.02 - 11.05

Thurso 15.30

 

The train back left 11.45am and arrived at Euston 10.05 the next day.

 

Mentions that the heaviest traffic was at the end of the war when the entire Grand Fleet was given 12 days leave in parties of 14,000 at a time! At one point the North British had 32 specials leave and arrive in Rosyth in one day and were routed alternately via Berwick and Carlisle.

 

Hamilton notes that how the Highland fared is not recorded.

 

Elsewhere Hamilton notes that the Highland moved 400,000 tons of timber in 1918 which would be 8000 tons a week or approx 20 trains. (Perhaps a clue as to why the coal trains went to Grangemouth - it does seem that the Scottish waters were considered safe - freight traffic for Skye that in peace time went by train to Kyle was switch to boat from Glasgow to Skye during the war).

This lumber traffic was mostly for pit props so a flow which would be working south at the same time

 

He also notes that for the Northern Mine Barrage which was laid by the US in 1917 and the material was landed at Corpach and at Kyle. The locos that hauled the Kyle trains were LSWR 0-6-0s and the wagons were supplied by the SECR.

 

 

Edited Friday at 22:33 by Morello Cherry

[Buhar]

A note in the Highland Railway journal records some coal Jellicoes went up to Aberdeen/Peterhead and so were GNSR hauled on their final leg.

 

I think Jellicoes originally meant the coal trains for fuelling the fleet but subsequently seems to have applied to any train servicing the fleets needs in the far north.  The name was reused in WW2 too.

 

The Highland had insufficient line capacity, limited siding space at Wick and Thuso and the ports themselves were not fitted out for bunkering at the scale needed. Hence, apart from the huge task of lumber movement, the Highland managed the troop and mail trains for the fleet. A huge undertaking in its own right.

 

Alan 

[Morello Cherry]

So a few more bits of information from Hamilton.

 

Re - coal trains -

 

• the LTSR Whitelegg 4-6-4 tanks found a wartime niche on coal trains between Wellingborough and Brent. Always piloted though. Says that everything except the Compounds and Class 3 was used on the coal trains including the singles.
• One memory he has is of passing a very long coal train between Bedford and Luton which was hauled by Whitelegg tank piloted by a single. Both absolutely filthy. (I would love to see this modelled)

 

Some interesting loco loans.

 

• Domeless H&B Stirling 0-6-0s to the SECR
• MR and LB&SC to the GER in 1915
• GCR Atlantics and Goods Engines to the Caledonian (could possibly have worked Jellicoe Coal Specials over Caledonian metals?)

 

Loans to the Highland at the start of the war

• GNSR 0-4-4T (1)
• NER Fletcher 0-6-0 (6) one numbered 1399 allowed 30 with banking between Perth and Inverness (Jones goods allowed 40)
• NER 0-4-4T (1)
• CR 0-6-0 (6)
• CR 5ft Oban 4-6-0 (1)
• NBR rebuilt Holmes 0-6-0 (2)
• LNWR Cauliflower 0-6-0 (2)
• LNWR Precedent 2-4-0 (1) Auditor

 

Using 22 borrowed engines in 1918 including some from the LB&SC (type unrecorded) and LSWR.

 

NBR most liked by Highland crews. Caledonian most hated. It appears that most of the locos sent were elderly and in bad shape.

 

Highland management do appear to have been one of the worst. One example is given of a typical guards shift.

 

Inverness dep 20.00

Shunt all stations to Dalwhinnie

Perth arr 16.00

Perth dep 23.00 (to return to Inverness)

 

It is purely subjective but I tend to think that railways during WW1 is far less written about and modelled than railways during WW2. Aviemore or Inverness during WW1 would make for a very interesting model although you might get a lot of pushback when an LSWR hauled train comes through.

Edited 17 hours ago by Morello Cherry