A garden shed for a model railway?

[Halton Boy]

Hello everyone

I have been looking at using a garden shed to house a model railway.

To fall under the rule of permitted development the shed must  not be more than 3mtrs x 5mtrs (9.8' x 16').

The height must not be greater than 2.5mtrs (8').

The shed must not cover more than half the garden which includes any existing outdoor buildings.

3mtrs x 5mtrs is not that big for an O gauge layout.

 

Will a garden shed be suitable for a model railway in this country?

Will damp be a problem? 

 

The only company that I can find that supplies sheds for model railways is Crane Garden Buildings.

 

A large shed is very expensive so I would like to know if it would be suitable.

I have seen people on you tube saying that sheds are not suitable for workshops because everything will go rusty unless there is full time heating and ventilation.

Does anyone have experience of using a shed for a railway?

 

Thank you for your help

Ken 

 

[spamcan61]

There are plenty of other suppliers of sheds, random example:-

 

https://www.berkshiregardenbuildings.co.uk/product/barnwell-apex-wooden-shed-workshop-by-aj/

 

Personally I'm looking at using a shed but In wouldn't dream of using one without decent ventilation, insulation and some heating.

 

Recent discussion here:-

 

 

Edited April 25 by spamcan61

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Not a shed, but an unheated single skin brick, mineral felt roof outbuilding in SE England, same climate as Oxford. Largely RTR OO on commercial nickel-silver rail track, and it works completely reliably. Untreated steel tools will rust but nothing horrific, all the steel components in the models have been trouble free these past twenty odd years, including the mild steel tyres on MGW wheelsets. However, I wouldn't venture mild steel rail, as an old length of tinned steel rail flexi track I found a few years ago was in a bad way. 

 

In the same location, madam's garden shed, all timber, felted roof, on a concrete base, uninsulated, ventilation under the eaves overhang, never any condensation. Given half a chance I would extend the model railway into that with confidence, but the horticultural expert firmly expresses a different opinion on this proposal.

[DCB]

The OP lists his  P.D rights but they do vary from area, conservation areas often don't have p.d and some houses have had P.D removed as part of the original permission.

Our railway shed is purpose built 24 X 8, wood, insulated,  central heated , has lasted 40 years and has subsidence issues.  The railway is 00

The garden shed is a lot younger, lists a bit its on paving stones has not subsided but not suitable for a railway. Just not robust  enough.   A  Stable would be better, we put a 3 bay stable up for our Parish Council store, and lined out and insulated would make a great railway shed 
 16 X9  (8X4.5 in oo speak) is a bit small for a railway.  A lot of old modellers in 0 had the station in the shed and a garden railway, Some covered the outside lines for year round running and some ran from shed to shed,   16ft station and line running outside to do a 180 and come back in, or even a 180 both ends  would work well.    Grab some 1960s / 70s Railway Modeller and Model Railway constructor mags for inspiration

[Halton Boy]

Hi everyone

I only read part of the post on log cabins as I did not think this was about sheds.

I have looked at more sheds and information.

I think that a large shed would need a concrete base. One of my near neighbours runs a concrete pumping company.

The roof needs to have a stronger covering than roof felt.

Insulation, heating and ventilation would be needed.

I am an electrician so the mains supply would not be a problem.

  

O gauge is a pain because of the size required.

Maybe a shed for the fiddle yard with a garden railway is the answer.

 

I have a tool shed by Tiger Sheds and it is only small with no windows.

I partly insulated it with kingspan. 

Everything has stayed dry and not rusty.

 

I will keep looking, but when you buy a shed with all the things you need then the price soon goes up. 

There is also the question of security.

Thank you for your help.

Ken

[ikcdab]

My railway (see thread in my sig) is housed in a 7.5m x 4.5m shed in the garden.

Providing its lined and fully insulated then there will be no damp problems. In the winter i leave an oil-filled radiator on over night but only in the winter months.

The fully insulated is the most important part. I have 75mm loft roll in all walls and in the roof andf there is thick polythene underneath the exterior cladding.  The shed is raised slightly above the ground so there is air circulation underneath.

I actually built my own shed. It really isn't that difficult  - its simple carpentry. My fully insulated, lined shed with flooring, electrics and lighting cost me around £3500, homebuilt in 2020.

 

I also wonder why you limit yourself to the PD maximum sizes. You can build a shed whatever size you like if you get planning permission for it.  Its not that expensive and worth doing for something that is a long term investment. You could discuss it with your local planning dept and see what they say.

 

And a final thought, if you do stick to the PD maximium sizes, you can still have external tracks which in O gauge are very practical.  So a garden railway with the main bits being in your shed.

[AyJay]

Yes you can use a shed.  As have I.

However, not a basic single layer job that you can buy from any garden centre.  Go for a bespoke 'outdoor room/studio' building.

It will need to be of double layer construction, insulated, and the windows must be double glazed.  Also check that there is plenty of insulation in the roof.  My place gets very warm when the Sun is shining.

Don't skimp on the foundation, go for a concrete base. and make sure that the suppliers are aware that you need a floor that will not 'bounce'.

For internal flooring, go for something like laminate flooring with the dense fibre sheeting underneath. It'll help keep the place warm and be easy to keep clean/tidy.

You will need ventilation, so fit vents and opening windows. Try to upgrade the door lock(s) if you can, including hingebolts.

Lighting:  I went for LED lighting tracks down each side of the space. Fit 'Cold' lights, not 'warm' lights; that's colour temperature.  LED's should not get thermally hot.

Power sockets; you can never have too many power sockets. Budget for an electrician to fit an armoured cable spur.

Can the shed windows be viewed from any public area?  If so, you will need to fit something that gives you privacy from prying eyes.  If I had enough room, I would have gone for vertical blinds, as it was, I ended up with 'modesty film' on the glass and roller blinds.  Blinds will be doubly important if the Sun can shine inside, your track will get hot!

If your access is across a grassy lawn, fit something solid, like a path or stepping stones. The place will become a mud bath.

Other considerations: Remote door bell. Telephone/intercom to house. Will there be enough storage underneath for tools, materials etc.

Remember that sheds are easy pickings for burglars, so think carefully about leaving high value items unattended in there.  When I heard that 'travellers' had camped nearby and residents immediately reported break-ins, I dashed back from work and moved all my stock & tools back into the house.

[Temeraire]

Hi Ken

 

I have a mid range 16 x 10 shed that houses Exford Park sourced from a company in Romsey. It is on a concrete base and was specified to be sized that I could fit full size security door with 15 point locking in the end elevation. I also had two double glazed windows made locally that can be opened for ventilation and have blackout blinds to keep the sun and prying eyes out. Myself and a mate erected the shell of the shed over one weekend which kept the costs down. I then fitted Celotex insulation to the walls and roof before sheeting over with 6 mm MDF and the whole lot painted with several coats of paint. There is 50mm of polystyrene sheets under the 18mm wooden floor. Once all this was complete I fitted skirting board and carpet tiles, before the electrician did his thing and fitted three 5 foot LED strip lights. The roof covering is felt that was stuck down with bitumen and the shed is now connected to our home alarm system. 

 

The shed was completed and layout ready in late 2017, and so far (touch wood) hasn't given any issues, and other than coating the outside with fence protection regularly has been maintenance free. If its cold a small fan heater brings the temperature up fairly quickly, although the two of us have since built another shed in the same way for a mate who has fitted an Aircon unit to it, very posh! Unfortunately all the pictures taken during the construction phase were lost in the great outage here otherwise I'd post them here but as you're only in Oxford you'd be welcome to come and have a look if it helps you?

Edited April 25 by Temeraire

[Halton Boy]

Hello everyone

I understand what you are saying.

The shed has to be done correctly.

I am not a carpenter so I will need to purchase a building that is suitable.

I realise now that it will be expensive for the base and the building.

I can wire the shed and do the insulation myself.

It was not until I asked the question on here that I realised all that was required.

I will price everything up and consider other options like extending the garage.

Thank you all for your help.

Ken 

[The Bandit]

I have my layout in a 14ftx8ft timber shed bought 7 yrs ago for about £3500 including erection, electric supply from my garage, lights and 4 double sockets. It has heavy duty felt on the roof which was blow-torched on. It sits on large paving slabs which I laid, the shed just overhanging by the outer skin to avoid rain settling underneath. I added a concrete haunching to the edge of the slabs to further ensure rain ran away. The roof has a steel beam to avoid sagging. It has two timber double glazed windows and double doors - the doors let in a little draught but I reckon it aids ventilation. The roof space has rock wool and I used bubble wrap with a silvered outer to insulate the internal walls. I then used tongue and groove to line out the inside - this was included in the quoted price. Any gaps where walls met were sealed with clear sealant and trimmed with quarter quadrant timber. The timber floor is covered with cheap carpet tiles. I use preservative on the outside every year. The shed is water tight and only needs a 5 or 10 minute blast with a free standing electric heater to warm it up - and I live on the north-east coast which is cold and windy. I live in a fairly safe area and have a wife and Rottie - both formidable creatures for would be burglars. I model in card and up to now have no damp issues. A bit long-winded but I hope this helps you.

[Halton Boy]

Thank you for your reply.

As you say if done correctly a shed can work well.

Security is an issue in rural Oxfordshire. I will need to address that.

I would have to keep anything of value in the house.

Ken

[Free At Last]

If going for a shed, make sure it has a proper door in a frame, not a piece of wood covering a hole.

[Colin_McLeod]

My own layout is housed in a pre existing block built shed that came with the house.  I used contractors to get a new roof put on, but I did the remaining work (flooring, insulation, ceiling, lighting, electrics, windows and door) myself.  While I am happy with the result it took me a long time, and with hindsight if I was doing it again I would make greater use of contractors so that I could get to the model railway construction sooner.

 

Regarding the size limitations of permitted development, there is always the option to  exceed those restrictions by applying for planning permission.   

[Andymsa]

8 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

My own layout is housed in a pre existing block built shed that came with the house.  I used contractors to get a new roof put on, but I did the remaining work (flooring, insulation, ceiling, lighting, electrics, windows and door) myself.  While I am happy with the result it took me a long time, and with hindsight if I was doing it again I would make greater use of contractors so that I could get to the model railway construction sooner.

 

Regarding the size limitations of permitted development, there is always the option to  exceed those restrictions by applying for planning permission.   

I get the point of using contractors and get to the important work😊. But I often find contractors level of craftsmanship can be somewhat lacking. My concern with the shed prefab companies they just want to get in and out as quick as they can, so I would definitely chose very wisely. Not everyone has the ability to build large sheds or outside buildings but if some has the time and skill certainly build yourself.

[pheaton]

On 25/04/2024 at 18:03, Halton Boy said:

Hi everyone

I only read part of the post on log cabins as I did not think this was about sheds.

I have looked at more sheds and information.

I think that a large shed would need a concrete base. One of my near neighbours runs a concrete pumping company.

The roof needs to have a stronger covering than roof felt.

Insulation, heating and ventilation would be needed.

I am an electrician so the mains supply would not be a problem.

  

O gauge is a pain because of the size required.

Maybe a shed for the fiddle yard with a garden railway is the answer.

 

I have a tool shed by Tiger Sheds and it is only small with no windows.

I partly insulated it with kingspan. 

Everything has stayed dry and not rusty.

 

I will keep looking, but when you buy a shed with all the things you need then the price soon goes up. 

There is also the question of security.

Thank you for your help.

Ken

TBH....a log cabin is just a posh shed!!! the only difference is that in some cases (not all) they will be built from thicker materials....because they generally are of a larger size than a shed.... In my experience, an entry level log cabin...offers little advantage over a well built shed....

[Moley48]

I'm the OP from the other thread about log cabins/sheds. 

 

I've not started on my build yet and it will probably be some time before I do get round to it..Although I have done a fair bit of research into it already.

 

There is a chap called Grant williams who is building a model railway room on youtube and I cant for the life of me remember his youtube channel. Anyway, he built his own fully insulated "shed" following tutorials and guides from another channel called  garden room gurus. 

 

Liam, the gentleman behind garden room gurus can if needed provide build packs (£100ish) with all the necessary parts including screws, roof materials, ground rod system, timbers and cladding etc. Aswell as places to get those parts and part #.

 

I am going it alone having drawn up in cad a proposed design and then with a little bit of guidance from the above channel should be relatively straight forward.

 

I was thinking of using a modernish ground screw system (in terms of garden room use) as my support work for the base. However, we had an old greenhouse removed years and years ago which has left alot of loose hardcore underneath the ground. Not ideal for the screws at all as they definitely need a solid consistent foundation to screw into. 

Although I know you plan to pour concrete this was not an option for me.

 

Another thing is you can, depending on your area although seems pretty much the same nationwide from what I can gather. Build upto 30sqm providing you stay under the 50% restriction incl any other sheds, added bits from the original property design. 

 

I may need to inform about my planned room due to boundary restrictions. I need to get the plan off my other PC but I'm 400mm left and right of mine and my neighbours fence so a specific fire retardant exterior finish may be required. 

 

If I turn the whole thing 90deg and run it length ways down the garden this is no longer and issue. 

 

As I say not an expert by any means and have no experience of my own build yet, still learning.

 

 

 

 

[Buhar]

1 hour ago, Moley48 said:

There is a chap called Grant williams who is building a model railway room on youtube and I cant for the life of me remember his youtube channel. Anyway, he built his own fully insulated "shed" following tutorials and guides from another channel called  garden room gurus. 

https://m.youtube.com/c/GrantWilliamsRailway

 

The Gurus, IIRC, favour a threaded rod support system, so concrete is required.

I am considering plastic pads to support a wood frame. 

https://www.tuin.co.uk/Timber-Frame-Base-Pads.html

Similar are available from other suppliers and there are concrete versions too.  My only concern is resistance to strong winds.

Alan 

[Moley48]

16 minutes ago, Buhar said:

https://m.youtube.com/c/GrantWilliamsRailway

 

The Gurus, IIRC, favour a threaded rod support system, so concrete is required.

I am considering plastic pads to support a wood frame. 

https://www.tuin.co.uk/Timber-Frame-Base-Pads.html

Similar are available from other suppliers and there are concrete versions too.  My only concern is resistance to strong winds.

Alan 

 

Uses concrete but not a concrete pad... The rod system uses a 600mm x 200mm hole with a large washer plate around a handspans distance up an M24 threaded rod to stop the rod from piling through the concrete once set.

 

Which is why I'm considering ground screws. No concrete at all providing the initial foundation is suitable. 

 

 

Edited May 8 by Moley48

[wombatofludham]

My "Wednesford " layout was in a 12 x 8 shed (the maximum I could have within my permitted development rights) which I bought from an eBay advert.

As others have said do check your position regarding PD rights, I'm a retired Town Planner so knew the rules but was aware the estate I lived on was subject to some Article 4 directions which removed some PD allowances, fortunately my place wasn't included so subject to the "totting up" rule I could go ahead.

I had a concrete foundation laid which was very easy as the delivery could just be poured directly into the shuttering from the lorry delivering it over the fence.  The shed was then erected by the company delivering the shed, and subsequently rag-bolted into the concrete.  I had to re-inforce the roof and replace the felt with Coraline roofing due to the windy weather we get here on the coast but once that was done the shed (which was ship-lap construction) has been weathertight and just gets a coating of preservative every couple of years or so.

I deliberately deleted having any windows in my shed for three reasons, security as it is in a very visible location to the side of my previous property, to avoid solar gain and fading, and to allow me to fit colour changing internal lighting which really can simulate dawn to dusk quite effectively.

As I live in a coastal location all I did was fit a 9mm ply internal wall over the internal bracing, without insulation thereby avoiding a damp-trap, creating effectively a cavity wall.  On cooler days I just used a fan heater but most of the time I could work in there without heating.  My stock was kept in lockable tool chests and never suffered from any problems due to the lack of heating and the interior of the shed was very dry.

So, in summary, I would say that a shed is perfectly feasible for a model layout but do check on your planning status, build the shed to the prevailing weather conditions in your area (wind is the big issue but also typical average temperatures), if you need insulation then don't use "woolly" insulation but use solid stuff that won't absorb water, make sure your electrical feed is linked to an RCB as a precaution and you should be good to go.

I've now moved across the village to a bungalow with an integral garage that is significantly larger than the shed at my old place but "Wednesford" in the old shed was a really good project that, if I hadn't moved, would have still been in use.

[Andymsa]

12 hours ago, Moley48 said:

I'm the OP from the other thread about log cabins/sheds. 

 

I've not started on my build yet and it will probably be some time before I do get round to it..Although I have done a fair bit of research into it already.

 

There is a chap called Grant williams who is building a model railway room on youtube and I cant for the life of me remember his youtube channel. Anyway, he built his own fully insulated "shed" following tutorials and guides from another channel called  garden room gurus. 

 

Liam, the gentleman behind garden room gurus can if needed provide build packs (£100ish) with all the necessary parts including screws, roof materials, ground rod system, timbers and cladding etc. Aswell as places to get those parts and part #.

 

I am going it alone having drawn up in cad a proposed design and then with a little bit of guidance from the above channel should be relatively straight forward.

 

I was thinking of using a modernish ground screw system (in terms of garden room use) as my support work for the base. However, we had an old greenhouse removed years and years ago which has left alot of loose hardcore underneath the ground. Not ideal for the screws at all as they definitely need a solid consistent foundation to screw into. 

Although I know you plan to pour concrete this was not an option for me.

 

Another thing is you can, depending on your area although seems pretty much the same nationwide from what I can gather. Build upto 30sqm providing you stay under the 50% restriction incl any other sheds, added bits from the original property design. 

 

I may need to inform about my planned room due to boundary restrictions. I need to get the plan off my other PC but I'm 400mm left and right of mine and my neighbours fence so a specific fire retardant exterior finish may be required. 

 

If I turn the whole thing 90deg and run it length ways down the garden this is no longer and issue. 

 

As I say not an expert by any means and have no experience of my own build yet, still learning.

 

 

 

 

do check with the council as my council don’t allow PD if your closer than 1 meter from the boundary.

Edited May 8 by Andymsa

[Buhar]

9 hours ago, Andymsa said:

do check with the council as my council don’t allow PD if your closer than 1 meter from the boundary.

I think that's the same everywhere as Permitted Development is a national scheme (England and Wales plus differences in Scotland) but with some local variations.

 

To re-word your post:- a structure under PD must be at least one metre from the boundary of the curtilage.

[fulton]

27 minutes ago, Buhar said:

I think that's the same everywhere as Permitted Development is a national scheme (England and Wales plus differences in Scotland) but with some local variations.

 

To re-word your post:- a structure under PD must be at least one metre from the boundary of the curtilage.

You do need to check on Permitted Development, as they can be removed as a condition of a planning approval, speaking as a former developer, I have kept to the rules myself, even if neighbours all around me have not. 

[Andymsa]

1 hour ago, Buhar said:

I think that's the same everywhere as Permitted Development is a national scheme (England and Wales plus differences in Scotland) but with some local variations.

 

To re-word your post:- a structure under PD must be at least one metre from the boundary of the curtilage.

you put it better than me 😁. One further point if a building is built under PD and is within 1 meter,  as previously the rules allowed build within 1 meter, and you extend the building and the extension is outside of 1 meter you still can’t build under PD as the whole building is taken into account. This is 100% as it happened to me.

[Halton Boy]

This is a great help everyone.

Thank you

Ken