A different view of Miami from a loco drivers perspective

[johnteal]

Or better still

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDcjV2qJ9jc

 

[dave1905]

EG On some Old RRs , Train A threw a 10min fusee out of the caboose onto the tracks as they travelled along.

If following Train B met a fusee which was still burning, they knew they were within 10 minutes of catching up with Train A ahead of them...)

 

A tad more involved than that. The rules requiring fusees to be dropped can be found in most pre-1980's rule books in Rules 11 and 99.

 

If a train was traveling at a speed at which it could be overtaken the crew was supposed to drop lit fusees as required to warn following trains.

 

If a train encountered a lit fusee burning on or near the track it was operating on it wa a signal to stop the train. If the fusee could be seen, the train was required to wait until the fusee burned out then had to proceed at restricted speed (a speed that would permit stopping short of anything) for flagging distance (typically 1-2 miles depending on the max speed of the territory). If the train could not see the lit fusee, they had to wait 10 minutes, then proceed at restricted speed for flagging distance.

 

These procedures did not apply if the burning fusee was beyond both rails of an adjacent track or the train was operating on other than a main track.

 

These rules became obsolete when cabooses were generally done away with, in the 1980's.

[highpeak]

Per the 1961 Boston and Maine "rules for the government of the operating department", in non-signal territory fusees that burned red for 5 minutes and then yellow for 5 minutes were to be used. A red fusee meant stop and then proceed at restricted speed for 10 minutes, yellow meant immediately reduce to restricted speed and maintain restricted speed for 5 minutes.

 

There was also a note to the effect that trains that included placarded inflammable tank cars were not to be operated over lit fusees. The fusee was supposed to be removed and placed to the side of the track.

[Prof Klyzlr]

you might need a few more fusee when the train runs along the street rather than across it !

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aguG8Sqn9MU

 

Dear John,

 

Um, that doesn't actually count, Jack London Square is what, triple-tracked mainline down the main street?

It's only the tourists and the foolhardy that get nailed by trains there,

all the locals are patently aware that "any train may move on any track, at any time"...

 

Happy Modelling,

Aim to Improve,

Prof Klyzlr

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear RMWebbers,

 

from back in the day, on the streets of NYC

 

 

Happy Modelling,

Aim to Improve,

Prof Klyzlr

[Prof Klyzlr]

 

These rules became obsolete when cabooses were generally done away with, in the 1980's.

 

Dear Dave,

 

I totally agree that the use of fusees is "old school", but "obsolete"?

In the same way that in some circumstances morse code is still relevant to hi-tech military,

and simply "red wire/black wire" coding is relevant to ultra high spec IT worlds,

 

the posted YT

 

says that fusees are definitely still a "part of daily life" for many street-dwelling RR crews...

(or at least it was circa Sept 2009... )

 

and is still relevant for "over the road" crews too.

 

Indeed, the current NORAC rules which NYCH and many Eastern shortlines operate under still carry fusees as a part of their very-much "current day" rules.

 

http://thebecketts.com/images/NORAC%208th%20Edition%20NJT.pdf

(Page 10, "...A train or track car must not be operated without a red flag, white light, and at least 6 fusees...")

 

and state what should be done if a crew encouters a fusee

 

(Page 11, "...14. Unattended Fusees

If a train on a main track or controlled siding encounters an unattended fusee burning on a main track or controlled siding, or on a track next to a main track or controlled siding, it must stop. It must then proceed at Restricted Speed until the head end is 1 mile beyond the fusee.

A train must not be stopped over a burning fusee if it can be avoided. If so stopped and the train cannot be moved, the fusee must be extinguished.

Fusees must not be placed on bridges or other structures that are liable to be damaged by fire...")

 

Page 39 (Rule 138) is also interesting...

 

Of course, it's also important to note that different RRs have their own specific rules which overlay the federally mandated FRA/AAR/NORAC operating rules...

 

Happy Modelling,

Aim to Improve,

Prof Klyzlr

[shortliner]

I think that for our purposes, fusees were /are mainly lit for streets/roads, where there is no gate, as a warning to traffic to stop - they are an alternative to a flagman. and would involve the train coming to a standstill, the "flagman" throwing or placing the Fusee, and him getting back on board as the train crosses the road at minimum speed.

 

Love that New York picture by the way, Prof - Now THAT is street running!

[Jon Gwinnett]

I think that for our purposes, fusees were /are mainly lit for streets/roads, where there is no gate, as a warning to traffic to stop - they are an alternative to a flagman. and would involve the train coming to a standstill, the "flagman" throwing or placing the Fusee, and him getting back on board as the train crosses the road at minimum speed.

 

That's what I thought too, but the LA video seems to show the fusees being lobbed out, "on the fly" as it were.

[shortliner]

I do know what you mean - but the fact that employees are taking "shortcuts" doesn't mean that is what the rules and regs say - maybe he is risking suspension or the sack?

[Glorious NSE]

If it's not a complete stop it's close...probably the angle doesn't help either as you can't see the train when the first one is thrown, the crew member will have been looking for a hole in the traffic to lob them into so how quickly it happens will probably depend a fair amount on whether there's a suitable gap?

[dave1905]

I totally agree that the use of fusees is "old school", but "obsolete"?

In the same way that in some circumstances morse code is still relevant to hi-tech military,

 

I never said fusees were obsolete (although torpedoes are). I described what a crew on the rear of a train would do when their speed dropped where they could be overtaken. Those rules aren't in the NORAC rules because (as I said) there generally aren't manned cabooses on the rear of trains so its impossible to comply. The flagging rules arent't the same between "standard" and NORAC rules. The old rules are obsolete. They are gone. They are no longer used. That doesn't mean that there aren't new rules or that the new rules don't use fusees. All I said was the old rules became obsolete when cabooses went away. And that is true. The old rules are obsolete and the new rules are in force.

 

The use of fusees to protect a crossing while switching is in Rule 138 and only covers movements where the automatic crossing warning devices are defective or there will be shoving movement across the crossing. It does not require fusees (a white light can be used by night and a red flag by day) and does not say anything about putting fusees on the gound or whether they should dropped or placed or how many or where. All that is required is that there be a person at the crossing and that they use a red flag by day or a white light or fusee at night to warn road and pedestrian traffic.

 

There is nothing in the rules about putting fusees on the road surface at the crossing. That is completely ad hoc and in addition to what is required, as long as there is a warm body back there too. The only time they are required to flag the crossing (as far as train movements go)is when the train vacates the crossing and then makes a shoving move across it. There is no requirement to drop fusees if the crossing is going to be occupied by the engine nor if the crossing will be continuously occupied. This is not to say that a crew can't drop fusees, just that it isn't required, so whatever their technique is it doesn't matter since it is above what is required.

 

Once the crossing is occupied, the crew is no longer required to flag the crossing.

[johnteal]

After all this talk of Fusees I had to have a go..

 

 

Much more info on my RMweb blog

 

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/blog/323/entry-5842-fusee-in-ho/

 

John

[shortliner]

John - mine arrived this morning works well, and seems to be good value