K's and Wills SR wagons

[Il Grifone]

Checking through the SECR wagons book to find a prototype for the K's 'SECR 8 ton open wagon', I noted that it doesn't really correspond with any of the wagons depicted. Is this because it's not really an SECR wagon or merely duff modelling? (The diagonal strapping bolted to the woodwork rather than the corner plate may be a clue here.) SECR wagons appear to have had high or low curved ends, whereas this has a medium height end.

 

And then there's Wills bolster wagon, illustrated as 'SR', but again doesn't look like anything in any of the 3 books (LSWR, LBSCR, SECR). Again is this a figment of their imagination or is there a prototype somewhere?

 

Over to the experts and thanks in advance.

[Nick Holliday]

As far as I am concerned the K's "SECR" open is a reasonable model of an LBSCR Open A - goodness knows why the got that wrong.

[hayfield]

I now have all the K's Southern wagons and the correct numbers (SR or Pre Group) would be of great use to me.

 

Thanks in advance

[Il Grifone]

I would agree re LBSC OPEN A, but the wheelbase is too short at 9' 0". The strapping seems more consisent with the SECR design as well (thicker corner plates with two rows of bolts - though in the wrong place). It also lacks the curve in the bottom of the verticals at the sides of the doors. The ends are also only 3 planks high rather than 3 and a bit, though this is nearer than the SECR ends. The axleguards are also not LBSC pattern, though again not quite SECR either. (Poor drawing? or scaled from dimensions and a poor photo?)

 

Numbers:

Due to lack of ID I can't quote for the open, however the van appears to be SR dia. 1421* for which SECR numbers are 5857/906, 6141/50 & 7075/124 - SR 44990/5039.

 

* 15' 7" over headstocks 9' 0" WB Mansell 3' 1½" wheels. (there is some variation in the brake gear and some had 4 'torpedo' roof ventilators.

 

I don't have volume 4, so can't quote numbers for the brake van.

 

One of my opens is lettered SECR with the number 2097, but I probably made this up. It was painted before the Southern wagon books appeared.

[Nick Holliday]

I think it's a bit of a hybrid. The single brake block harks back to the earlier Open A's which either had no external diagonal strapping, or had hockey stick ends to the verticals either side of the door. The double row of bolts to the corner plates could come from the 1896-1900 batch with steel underframes. The straight vertical "strapping" was a feature of production from about 1912. The pair of wooden door bangers is typical LBSC, although not with a single brake, and not found on SECR wagons. But, as said, the wheelbase is 9' 0" instead of 9' 3" or 9' 6", the ends are slightly shallower than they should be, the axleboxes unlike anything the LBSC produced, and the buffers are much too long, although the correct shape. And, looking closer, the diagonal strapping is wrong, as it only meets the edge of the corner plate, instead of continuing up to the end of the wagon. But it must be remembered that it came out when there wasn't as much information so easily found as today, although it would have been easier to find a real-life example, and it was probably one of the first wagon kits that looked like a specific type, rather than a generic five plank open, or whatever. There were some drawings available of the LBSC Open, such as from Hamblings, but they were themselves rather simplistic, so maybe Keyser merely followed it faithfully.

[Il Grifone]

I think it's a bit of a hybrid. The single brake block harks back to the earlier Open A's which either had no external diagonal strapping, or had hockey stick ends to the verticals either side of the door. The double row of bolts to the corner plates could come from the 1896-1900 batch with steel underframes. The straight vertical "strapping" was a feature of production from about 1912. The pair of wooden door bangers is typical LBSC, although not with a single brake, and not found on SECR wagons. But, as said, the wheelbase is 9' 0" instead of 9' 3" or 9' 6", the ends are slightly shallower than they should be, the axleboxes unlike anything the LBSC produced, and the buffers are much too long, although the correct shape. And, looking closer, the diagonal strapping is wrong, as it only meets the edge of the corner plate, instead of continuing up to the end of the wagon. But it must be remembered that it came out when there wasn't as much information so easily found as today, although it would have been easier to find a real-life example, and it was probably one of the first wagon kits that looked like a specific type, rather than a generic five plank open, or whatever. There were some drawings available of the LBSC Open, such as from Hamblings, but they were themselves rather simplistic, so maybe Keyser merely followed it faithfully.

 

Probably the case!

 

I'll probably solve the problem by keeping the one I have SECR as is and lettering the other as an ex LBSCR wagon (it's already in SR livery). I may make some sort of effort to at least lessen the errors, but this is more likely to end up on the 'to do' list!