Caledonian Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 Two questions: The ex L&Y 0-4-0ST 0F, otherwise known as the L&Y Pug is credited to Mr Aspinall, who I'm sure really had his mind on higher things. Was it really a product of the Horwich drawing office of was it an adaptation of an industrial loco, just as the Caley Pug was developed by Mr Drummond from a Neilson? Secondly, I have it in the back of my mind that at least one was tried out at Inverness shortly after the Grouping before sanity and the Caley one prevailed. Any idea as to the identity of the loco in question? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Kirkham Posted September 13, 2010 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 13, 2010 Perhaps even more remarkable than Inverness was the home of No 11245, ex-L&Y No. 43. During the 1930s it worked at the topmost level of Penmaenmawr granite quarry . It was transported up to the altitude of around 1500 ft on a special trolley running on the 3ft gauge inclines. My source is Boyd's Narrow Gauge Railways in North Carnarvonshire, volume 3. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny Emily Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 One of my Hornby (ex Dapol) models of this class carries a builder's plate that purports to make it a Swindon loco. Is this an error, or were some built at Swindon as part of an order for the L&Y?From memory the model is of 51235 or 51232 (it is boxed away and inaccessible at the moment). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Posted September 14, 2010 Author Share Posted September 14, 2010 Three built by Vulcan Foundry in 1886. I think Horwich Works opened a couple of years later. The Aspinall series was developed from this type with a 3 inch shorter wheelbase (5' 9" insead of 6'). The Vulcans had gone by 1925. Inverness? Dunno, where's that?. Thought as much, so presumably there were little Vulcans running around all over the place at one time. Inverness, for the ignorant, is up north where the heather grows Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 One of my Hornby (ex Dapol) models of this class carries a builder's plate that purports to make it a Swindon loco. Is this an error, or were some built at Swindon as part of an order for the L&Y? From memory the model is of 51235 or 51232 (it is boxed away and inaccessible at the moment). This is most definitely an error! Adam Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meple Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 Inverness, for the ignorant, is up north where the heather grows What! Cannock Chase? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 What! Cannock Chase? I think it's a few yards north of that. Even further north than Leek Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giles Posted September 18, 2010 Share Posted September 18, 2010 'Can't answer the questions, but they were one of my father's favourite engines, and he snapped this one when it was working at BTH Rugby. They were charming..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekEm8 Posted September 18, 2010 Share Posted September 18, 2010 In LMS days the L&Y pugs were allocated to Bristol,Bath, Bow(London), Derby, Bangor and Scotland (no further details given on which area of Scotland) Ref Lancshire & Yorkshire Railway Locomotives by Barry Lane In Early B.R. days (1951) They were allocated to Bath(Radstock), Crewe South, Bristol(Midland), Derby And Burton all well away from their Northern origins. Also a number were sold to private contractors and some also hired out on short term contracts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted September 18, 2010 Share Posted September 18, 2010 In LMS days the L&Y pugs were allocated to Bristol,Bath, Bow(London), Derby, Bangor and Scotland (no further details given on which area of Scotland) Ref Lancshire & Yorkshire Railway Locomotives by Barry Lane In Early B.R. days (1951) They were allocated to Bath(Radstock), Crewe South, Bristol(Midland), Derby And Burton all well away from their Northern origins. Also a number were sold to private contractors and some also hired out on short term contracts. I believe one even made it to Swansea, for use on the dock lines and their associated street-running network. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekEm8 Posted September 18, 2010 Share Posted September 18, 2010 In LMS days the L&Y pugs were allocated to Bristol,Bath, Bow(London), Derby, Bangor and Scotland (no further details given on which area of Scotland) Ref Lancshire & Yorkshire Railway Locomotives by Barry Lane In Early B.R. days (1951) They were allocated to Bath(Radstock), Crewe South, Bristol(Midland), Derby And Burton all well away from their Northern origins. Also a number were sold to private contractors and some also hired out on short term contracts. Wot about Manchesters allocation? They worked the large yards near Salford and crossed streets to move freight from one yard to another. I suspect one of those yards is now the set for Coronation Street. Ooops Forgot to add - In addition to their normal L&Y/LMS/B.R. Central Division dockside/yard haunts of Manchester, Salford, Liverpool,Goole etc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted September 18, 2010 Share Posted September 18, 2010 Having ridden on one a short distance in one when I was 17, they knocked one about a bit. A short wheelbase on rough track and sharp curves didnt help I know, but the knocking from the big ends must have added a fair bit. Probably a similar experience on todays ex Penryn 0-4-0T's such as at Llanberis. It has been suggested that the nickname of 'pug' attached to 0-4-0s may derive from 'pugilist' for just this reason; the 'boxing' action that inevittably arises from the alternating piston thrusts which so readily induces yaw on a short wheelbase loco. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted September 18, 2010 Share Posted September 18, 2010 there was many at Liverpool, Bank hall 27a until 1961 I think when they where replaced by the 02 diesels. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invicta Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 I believe one even made it to Swansea, for use on the dock lines and their associated street-running network. According to an article on L&Y Pugs in 'Steam Days' (Sept 2004 issue), last BR survivor 51218 was transferred from Bristol Barrow Road to Swansea East Dock in Dec 1962, (although it apparently took several months to get there, via a couple of visits to Horwich Works...) and remained there until June 1964, when East Docks shed closed and the loco was transferred to Neath for storage and eventual withdrawal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invicta Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Also a number were sold to private contractors and some also hired out on short term contracts. The Steam Days article gives details of nine Pugs sold to industrial users by the LMS: 11243: sold to Mowlem & Co in Sept 1931. Mowlem named it 'Bassett' and used it on the contract to build King George V graving dock at Southampton. 'Bassett' was sold to Cohen & Sons in 1933, and resold to United Bottle Manufacturers in 1935. They painted it maroon, renamed it 'Prince' and it worked the sidings at their Charlton depot in S.E London until 1966- the last of the class to remain in use. 11225: sold to J.F. Wake & Co of Darlington in 1932. 11225's fate seems to be a bit of a mystery- possibly used by Wakes for a couple of years before being used as a source of spare parts for classmate 11255, bought in 1934. 11245: sold to Penmaenmawr & Welsh Granite Co in 1933, for use in their quarries, as described by Andy a few posts back. Sold on to Doughty-Goole Fertilisers at Lincoln by 1945, named 'Fison's Ltd', and used at Lincoln and later Widnes until 1955 11251: sold to R. Frazer & Sons in April '33. Resold within a year to the North Wales Granite Co at Conwy, and withdrawn by them around 1948/9 11256: sold to Turner's Paper Mill at Rawcliffe Bridge, Goole in Jan 1934. Originally kept it's LMS livery, damaged in a derailment in 1952, overhauled and returned to service in a lined green livery. Lasted until 1954, after which the company apparently hired a BR example from Goole shed 11224: sold to A.R. Adams & Co of Newport in June 1934. Overhauled and resold to ICI, who used it at their West Bank power station at Widnes. Named 'Weston', fitted with sprung buffers and a cut-down chimney, lasted until 1949 11255: sold to Wake & Co, 1934 as already mentioned. Sold to Pawson Bros of Woodkirk, Yorks in 1935 for quarry use, then requisitioned by the Ministry of Supply while under overhaul at Derby in 1940. Sent to the Royal Ordnance Depot at Euxton, Lancs as No 8, 'Hannah' . Scrapped 1957 11249: sold to Cooke & Nuttall's paper mill at Horwich. Used there until cut up in Dec 1947. 11257: sold to Holloway Bros of Westminster in Oct 1937 for the Dartford Power Station building contract (1937-39). Loaned to the Ministry of Supply 1942, later used at Barking by the County of London Electric Supply Co, and during the construction of Calverton Colliery, Notts. Scrapped 1955. The article also mentions that no matter how far from home they roamed in LMS/BR ownership, they were always returned to Horwich for any major overhauls, often either being towed with the motion dismantled, or as a wagon load. There's a nice shot in the article of 51235 loaded on a well wagon at Derby in Aug 1951 for the journey back to Horwich, which makes a very modellable little cameo- I built the Dapol kit up as 51235 to use as a load for the Bachmann well wagon a couple of years ago. I've always had a soft spot for the L&Y Pugs- I bought a couple when Dapol's RTR version was first released in the 80's, and still have them Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willy Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 The Steam Days article gives details of nine Pugs sold to industrial users by the LMS: etc I've always had a soft spot for the L&Y Pugs- I bought a couple when Dapol's RTR version was first released in the 80's, and still have them Thank you for timely & helpful post. I have my eyes on a Tower Brass 7mm version and I wanted to use it as an industrial loco and this has shown that there is a lot of choice and some of them lasted well into the BR period. Cheers Willy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invicta Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 Thank you for timely & helpful post. I have my eyes on a Tower Brass 7mm version and I wanted to use it as an industrial loco and this has shown that there is a lot of choice and some of them lasted well into the BR period. Cheers Willy One of the comments the article makes is that to some extent it's surprising how few were sold on to industrial users bearing in mind that the LMS withdrew no less than 34 between 1926-38 as available work for them declined during the Depression- but that it's probably less unexpected given the economic conditions of the time. Most of those sold seem to have had reasonably long careers in industrial use though, as you say, several of them- particularly 'Bassett/Prince'- lasting well into BR days ('Prince' then joining 51218 in preservation). Certainly the nine locos sold off for industrial by the LMS give a reasonable excuse to bend history a little and fictitiously sell on a couple more of those 34 withdrawn Pugs... The pics in the Steam Days article also show some interesting detail variations on the theme, such as the fitment of deflector plates above the chimneys (As in Mike's pic of 51206 above) or 'balloon' spark-arrestor chimneys (for use at a munitions factory at Aintree during WW1 apparently). There's also a pic of 11204 (BR 51204) sent to Maryport in 1929, and fitted with a shortened chimney and a cut-down flat-roofed cab to reduce it's overall height Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold geoff Posted September 21, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 21, 2010 Richard Coleman and Joe Rajczonek's book " Steaming into Northamptonshire" has a picture of 11212 while on loan to the Northampton Borough Engineer's Department in 1934. That is my feeble excuse for running one on my Northamptonshire based fictitious route to Oxford via Blisworth, Towcester, Brackley and Oxford North Junction! Geoff One of the comments the article makes is that to some extent it's surprising how few were sold on to industrial users bearing in mind that the LMS withdrew no less than 34 between 1926-38 as available work for them declined during the Depression- but that it's probably less unexpected given the economic conditions of the time. Most of those sold seem to have had reasonably long careers in industrial use though, as you say, several of them- particularly 'Bassett/Prince'- lasting well into BR days (and preservation in the case of 51218). Certainly the nine locos sold off for industrial by the LMS gives a reasonable excuse to bend history a little and fictitiously sell on a couple more of those 34 withdrawn Pugs... The pics in the Steam Days article also show some interesting detail variations on the theme, such as the fitment of deflector plates above the chimneys (As in Mike's pic of 51206 above) or 'balloon' spark-arrestor chimneys (for use at a munitions factory at Aintree during WW1 apparently). There's also a pic of 11204 (BR 51204) sent to Maryport in 1929, and fitted with a shortened chimney and a cut-down flat-roofed cab to reduce it's overall height Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMJ Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 I once read that the short wheelbase of this and the BR 02 diesel shunter were so that they could fit onto and be turned on a standard wagon turntable in the yards. Interesting comments about the ones in industry - ideal chance to modify and repaint locos. That reminds me I built a Dapol kit some time ago added a rear bunker and painted it maroon - never got round to putting it on a chassis. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny Emily Posted September 22, 2010 Share Posted September 22, 2010 I actually use the L&Y liveried #19 that Dapol produced years ago as an industrial loco. It's pre-grouping livery is suitably nondescript that it looks the industrial part with no modification. The only problem is that over extensive pointwork I've had no end of problems with these models stalling, even on electrofrog points. I have some modifications to try including filing out the chassis to allow more vertical play in the front axle and - as a drastic measure - having a perminantly attached shunters truck that doubles as extra pickups. However that would defeat the object of having a small loco to manage short headshunts effectively. The L&Y liveried Dapol model does seem to turn up a lot on Ebay and in secondhand shops. Unfortunately it is not the most colourful of liveries, or Hornby might have been persuaded to release another version in it, like they did with pre-grouping liveries for the Terrier. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invicta Posted September 23, 2010 Share Posted September 23, 2010 I actually use the L&Y liveried #19 that Dapol produced years ago as an industrial loco. It's pre-grouping livery is suitably nondescript that it looks the industrial part with no modification. The only problem is that over extensive pointwork I've had no end of problems with these models stalling, even on electrofrog points. I have some modifications to try including filing out the chassis to allow more vertical play in the front axle and - as a drastic measure - having a perminantly attached shunters truck that doubles as extra pickups. However that would defeat the object of having a small loco to manage short headshunts effectively. The L&Y liveried Dapol model does seem to turn up a lot on Ebay and in secondhand shops. Unfortunately it is not the most colourful of liveries, or Hornby might have been persuaded to release another version in it, like they did with pre-grouping liveries for the Terrier. A friend used several as industrial locos on his layout, all with a permanently-coupled shunters truck with extra pickups,. and it definitely makes a difference, though as you say, it does limit their ability to use short headshunts. The thought hadn't really occurred to me until you mentioned the L&Y livery version, but bearing in mind the number of NCB liveries Hornby have released on the Austerity 0-6-0ST/J94, and the number of Hornby Pugs I've seen used as generic industrials on layouts over the years, I'm quite surprised they've not released an industrial livery on the Pug- At the risk of heading into w*shl*st territory, United Bottle's 'Prince' in maroon would make an attractive little model, and would probably catch the collectors/'shiny thing' market more than a lined black L&Y version would, in much the same way that the various pre-grouping liveries on the Terrier have done Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Posted October 8, 2010 Author Share Posted October 8, 2010 Found a sort of Scottish stray: 11217 spent most of 1948 in Tweedmouth shed rather than Burton because it was needed to deputise for the regular North Sunderland line loco while it was being shopped. Its believed to have come and gone on a wagon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted October 11, 2010 Share Posted October 11, 2010 I saw one at Willesden 1A; I can't remember what one it was, but I found my spotting books from those years the other week. Noted there too was a Black 5 with a big cardboard Esso "Put a tiger in your tank" tiger attached as a headboard! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted October 14, 2010 Share Posted October 14, 2010 Two Pug's were transferred to Devons Road in 1952 for a short period to work the nearby gasworks while the usual loco was undergoing overhaul. One was 51207, which I just happen to have done, strangely enough. Edit: I had this Pug until last night when it was stolen in a break in along with other locomotives. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny Emily Posted October 14, 2010 Share Posted October 14, 2010 Is there anywhere where a definitive list of RTR models of this class produced by Dapol/Hornby and the liveries released in? I have 51218 and 51222 in early BR black with early totem from Hornby, 19 in L&Y lined black from Dapol, 51231 in weathered early BR black with early totem and 11232 in LMS black from Hornby. I seem to also recall seeing 51235 appear in both pristine and weathered black with early totem from Hornby (I have neither to confirm), and there was another LMS liveried version from them too with different (not known to me) running number. I seem to also recall seeing a Dapol pug in BR black with a number something like 5124x. I'm one of those people who dislikes repainting and renumbering RTR models and am reliant on the output from the major manufacturers to expand my fleet. I did wonder about the sprung buffers on the Dapol plastic kit, but it seems that 11224 in the above list can sort of explain that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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