Scale Signal Measurements

[R.Langley]

Hello all,

 

I wanted to start a new topic about the general measurements of signals and signalling equipment with regards to MAS systems, as I am intending to scratchbuild (so is this in the right thread) a gantry and some of the new 1 LED lens multi-aspect signals.

 

So here goes:

 

1) What are the overall measurements for 2, 3 and 4 aspect heads, along with the smaller 1 lens LED multi-aspects. (Width, height and depth).

 

2) Overall measurements for shunt signals, of two light variant and three light variant.

 

3) Minimum height, from ballast of a signal gantry spanning the track. Or the average height above the ballast that many gantries are built at.

 

Hope this isn't too much. Scale diagrams/drawings would be most welcome too!

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Richard

[Edwin_m]

Can I suggest you contribute instead to this thread, started this very day and asking much the same question?

[R.Langley]

Thanks for that. Though not all the questions asked here are answered in that thread.

 

Thanks

 

Richard

[selwyne]

Hello all,

 

I wanted to start a new topic about the general measurements of signals and signalling equipment with regards to MAS systems, as I am intending to scratchbuild (so is this in the right thread) a gantry and some of the new 1 LED lens multi-aspect signals.

 

So here goes:

 

1) What are the overall measurements for 2, 3 and 4 aspect heads, along with the smaller 1 lens LED multi-aspects. (Width, height and depth).

 

2) Overall measurements for shunt signals, of two light variant and three light variant.

 

3) Minimum height, from ballast of a signal gantry spanning the track. Or the average height above the ballast that many gantries are built at.

 

Hope this isn't too much. Scale diagrams/drawings would be most welcome too!

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Richard

[beast66606]

You are asking quite a few questions - have you done any research yourself ? The link posted gives some of the information. Forgive my suspicions but a member with only a few posts asking for a lot of information raises my eyebrows

[Edwin_m]

The most common LED colour light is the Dorman. There are drawings on their website.

 

(and thanks to both OPs for prompting me to have a look, as I'm thinking of doing some of these myself!).

[R.Langley]

Thank you Edwin, brilliant link, that has proved very useful.

 

Beast, I'm sorry if I haven't posted much, but I am at an advanced stage of layout building so need to begin thinking about signalling, gantries an all. Hence the questions.

Plus, I feel that this thread will likely produce some very useful information for all modellers, shown with the fantastic link that Edwin has provided.

 

Richard

[beast66606]

Thank you Edwin, brilliant link, that has proved very useful.

 

Beast, I'm sorry if I haven't posted much, but I am at an advanced stage of layout building so need to begin thinking about signalling, gantries an all. Hence the questions.

Plus, I feel that this thread will likely produce some very useful information for all modellers, shown with the fantastic link that Edwin has provided.

 

Richard

 

It really depends on the time period and region you are modelling, Dorman are last 5 years or so and the heads can be mounted on existing structures - do you have a signalling plan you can share with us ?

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks for that. Though not all the questions asked here are answered in that thread.

 

Thanks

 

Richard

 

But I think perhaps the most important one might be - what period are you modelling and in what area? As you will have seen from that thread it is difficult to give any sort of information without knowing what it is you want.

 

You have been given a link to the Dorman signals but they, and their heads still only occupy a small minority of signal head locations on Britain's railways albeit that many older heads are now being replaced - on the original structures. So 'where?' and 'when' really are needed because signals have long lives and - as Beast has already indicated - a plan will go a long way to clarifying exactly what you're after because the 'what?' will probably be as important as the 'where?' and 'when?'.

[R.Langley]

Here is a diagram of what I plan to do.

 

As for 'when', between the early 1980s and the present day, though I am very interested with the Dorman signals, so could probably get away with it.

As for 'where', on the Western Region, around Reading, hence the name of the layout "Shinfield Road", which is the road I live on.

 

Hope this helps?

 

Thanks

 

Richard

[The Stationmaster]

Here is a diagram of what I plan to do.

 

As for 'when', between the early 1980s and the present day, though I am very interested with the Dorman signals, so could probably get away with it.

As for 'where', on the Western Region, around Reading, hence the name of the layout "Shinfield Road", which is the road I live on.

 

Hope this helps?

 

Thanks

 

Richard

 

If we assume early 1980s Western a number of the signal formats you have shown are not at all in keeping with WR practice of the time, But firstly am I correct in assuming that part of the approach (towards signals 3 & 2) is double line and that the approach to No.1 is a branchline? And presumably some sort of bi-directional working applies towards signal No.2 from the left or are there three parallel single lines?

 

For 1980s WR practice, with some more recent updating you need really look not much further than a few quid on a 'bus ride into Reading. There at the ends of platforms 5 (east) and 9 (west) you will find standard WR pattern bracket structures and if you fancy a gantry just look at the west end of platforms 5/4 for inspiration because that is the standard Reading design of gantry installed from the late 1950s through to the late 1970s/early '80s on colour light schemes.

 

But first let's simplify and 'Westernise' your plan - starting with the easiest bits.

 

Signals 6 and 7 would be ground position lights - as you have shown them - ubnless the lines (and it would likely be no more than one) are regularly used to start running movements and - as you have shown - they would not have any sort of route indication. 10 would be the same - a ground position light (GPL) as you have shown it. 9 is in the wrong place and should be at the toe of the point coming out of the further depot lines and it would have a yellow pivot light. It is very unlikely that there would be a signal where you have No.8 and theRe is no need for one where you have No.11 (see earlier reference to No.6, in any case the signal does not need a route indicator as it only reads to one running route).

 

Signals 4 & 5 would be far more likely to have stencil route indicators - like the signals for leaving platforms 4 (east end), 6, 7, and 9 at Reading and they would have a subsidiary position light as you have shown.

 

Signal 1 should have a stencil indicator below the position light if it is required for passenger train use.

 

Signals 2 & 3 are somewhat adrift in a number of ways - for a start they would be two aspect (red/yellow main aspects) and - as you have shown - each would have a subsidiary position light. Signal 3 would show eitehr a single yellow to the platform or a position light with stencil indicator 'platform number', to read to the sidings it would show the position light with stencil indicator 'S'. Signal 2 would either have a theatre type route indicator (most likely in my view but there were variations) and would show a single yellow plus the platform number for a clear run into either platform, for subsidiary type movement it would show position light plus platform number.

 

I hope this will help you so start getting sorted with the form of the signals you will need and their position.

[R.Langley]

Mike,

 

Firstly, that is a fantastic lot of information, and is all very interesting and incredibly helpful.

 

And to clear up a few things, all three lines are bi-directional, as if there were more space in which to model in my loft, would have a depot area and further sidings to the left of the diagram.

Line 1 is probably just a glorified loop, where trains can pull out of the station and berth without using the platform space. So would a position light signal be required at the left end of the line?

Line 3 would have a crossover immediately past the left end of the layout, so freight/locos could get to line 2 without reversing into the station, so would an extra signal be required, or another position light?

 

And the gantry I have decided to base my model on is this one, @ Swansea.

 

 

Once again Mike, thanks.

 

Plus, even though not strictly accurate I would love to model the Dormans, even though I'd be breaking all the rules

 

Thanks

 

Richard

[Mr Snail]

Mike,

 

 

Plus, even though not strictly accurate I would love to model the Dormans, even though I'd be breaking all the rules

 

Thanks

 

Richard

 

That part of breaking the rules is called modellers licence.

[The Stationmaster]

Mike,

 

Firstly, that is a fantastic lot of information, and is all very interesting and incredibly helpful.

 

And to clear up a few things, all three lines are bi-directional, as if there were more space in which to model in my loft, would have a depot area and further sidings to the left of the diagram.

Line 1 is probably just a glorified loop, where trains can pull out of the station and berth without using the platform space. So would a position light signal be required at the left end of the line?

Line 3 would have a crossover immediately past the left end of the layout, so freight/locos could get to line 2 without reversing into the station, so would an extra signal be required, or another position light?

 

And the gantry I have decided to base my model on is this one, @ Swansea.

 

 

Once again Mike, thanks.

 

Plus, even though not strictly accurate I would love to model the Dormans, even though I'd be breaking all the rules

 

Thanks

 

Richard

 

Breaking rules is up to you - it's your railway (until you show pics of your 'typical 1980s WR layout' and get called all sorts of rude names because the signals aren't - all depends on which brand of bodyarmour you wear... tehehe).

 

Are the things you mention at the top on the visible part of the layout and how far are they from the station throat?

 

The bracket at Swansea High St is the standard Reading design - two at Readuing station (although both carry only single signal) plus a 'T' shape version of the design at the end of platforms 1 & 2). There are still some examples of the earlier version, now over 50 years old, at Plymouth which has a few differences from the type you wish to model. I don't know of a drawing of one anywhere but you could try a bit of scaling as the red aspect is 17ft 6inches above rail level (or should be). The one on Platform 9 at Reading is - without checking my pics - in a publicly accessible area so if you ask nicely you might be abve to get some close-ups.

[R.Langley]

With regards to the info about Line 1, only up to it being a glorified loop, the depot/sidings area is off layout, and therefore theoretical.

The crossover from line 3 to line 2 is also off layout, so strictly speaking doesn't exist.

 

And I'm ready for the backlash However I may change my mind and turn the Dormans into 2 aspects, but I'll have a think about it.

 

Richard

[Edwin_m]

That certainly looks like a Dorman at Swansea, so perfectly legitimate if your layout is set within the last five years or so but if you want to backdate to the 80s you should go for traditional multi-lens signals.

 

From the drawings the height of the backboard on this type of Dorman is 980mm, which should give you a pretty good cross-check of Mike's dimension and allow you to scale from your photo in the vertical direction at least. Horizontally it's a little foreshortened but apart from the supporting angle bracket thing most of the horizontal dimensions will depend on your track spacing in any case.

 

I'm looking at a N gauge dummy colour light signal fret from N Brass (their working ones are quite a bit overscale). This is pretty accurate to the current Group Standard on lens dimension and spacing (as linked from the thread I linked in my first reply). At the risk of restarting the "where and when" debate I'll also say it looks right to me for a "typical" recent multi-lens signal.

 

I think can be modified to a dimensionally passable N gauge Dorman head by starting with the 3-aspect and blocking up the middle and if necessary the top lens. Rapid do a red/green LED about 3mm across, which should fit exactly, so stand by for burnt fingers and cursing as I attempt to solder some SMD components!

[The Stationmaster]

That certainly looks like a Dorman at Swansea, so perfectly legitimate if your layout is set within the last five years or so but if you want to backdate to the 80s you should go for traditional multi-lens signals.

 

 

Signal head renewals to the Dorman pattern in the vicinity of Reading - but not at Reading itself apart from the experimental LED head on Platform 5 - have only taken place in the last 18 months or so. Multi-lens heads were still being installed in new work in the area up to 4 years ago - possibly even a bit more recently than that.

[beast66606]

Signal head renewals to the Dorman pattern in the vicinity of Reading - but not at Reading itself apart from the experimental LED head on Platform 5 - have only taken place in the last 18 months or so. Multi-lens heads were still being installed in new work in the area up to 4 years ago - possibly even a bit more recently than that.

 

Didcot - Reading is mixed old and Dorman (I photographed a fair few of them whilst taking the trip to Paddington in the summer)

 

PS - we have a Dorman under construction for Widnes

[modelmaker87]

And the gantry I have decided to base my model on is this one, @ Swansea.

 

Nice choice of gantry Richard, and and not too difficult to scratch build.

 

Cheers, Tony

[R.Langley]

Between Didcot and Reading, most of the signals on the Up line, as far as Basildon, have Dorman head's on old posts. Also the signals controlling the approaches to Moreton Junction ladders are both Dormans in the Down direction, on the Relief, though I am unsure if the setup is the same on the fasts.

 

There is also a Dorman controlling access to the GWML off Reading West curve, towards Didcot, this of the smaller pattern 3-aspect variety.

 

Do Dorman produce the Position light signals as well as the main heads? Or are they simply retro-fitted with LEDs?

 

Richard

[Edwin_m]

I noticed another type of LED signal at Acton Grange - on the Chester lines reading onto the viaduct from the Warrington end. This has separate lenses but no hoods, and the feather didn't appear to have any lenses at all so possibly some sort of sheet of glass with the lamps behind? Couldn't see any others around there so may be some kind of one-off.

 

Probably not visible from anywhere with public access - I was in a non-public area with permission - but should be visible from a passing train on the Crewe lines.

[beast66606]

I noticed another type of LED signal at Acton Grange - on the Chester lines reading onto the viaduct from the Warrington end. This has separate lenses but no hoods, and the feather didn't appear to have any lenses at all so possibly some sort of sheet of glass with the lamps behind? Couldn't see any others around there so may be some kind of one-off.

 

Probably not visible from anywhere with public access - I was in a non-public area with permission - but should be visible from a passing train on the Crewe lines.

 

It's a new style, there is (or soon will be) another in the Warrington area - but I think thats all at the moment.

[R.Langley]

There is, or at least was, one of these mystery signals on the DR between Newport and Cardiff, quite close to Wentloog. It was blank, no hoods, and two feathers with no lights or hoods, which I always thought was very strange.

 

I never managed to get a picture of it though.

[The Stationmaster]

 

Do Dorman produce the Position light signals as well as the main heads? Or are they simply retro-fitted with LEDs?

 

Richard

 

There is a mixture Some were retrofits and others were replacements. The reading station area was originaly SGE GPL heads - they're rectangular while West Junction yard was mainly AEI-GRS (they had a much deeper glass lense than the other types) although there were several Westinghouse on the Down side at West Jcn. Checking some of my past pics there were some AEI-GRS GPLs at Didcot and they seem to have been replaced by new heads when the pivot lights were changed over to red. Subs vary considerably with just about everyone getting a look in! The Reading scheme seems to have used up all sorts odds and ends of other jobs

[Edwin_m]

There is, or at least was, one of these mystery signals on the DR between Newport and Cardiff, quite close to Wentloog. It was blank, no hoods, and two feathers with no lights or hoods, which I always thought was very strange.

 

I never managed to get a picture of it though.

 

I've read somewhere this was a prototype of one of the even newer low-cost "modular" signals. Hope this doesn't mean that they'll replace all the Dormans with these jsut after I've managed to make about ten for my layout!

 

Picking up another point, Dormans seem to be replacing multi-lens signals in lots of places but I doubt they are doing this where the whole signalling is going to be replaced within a few years. This may account for the relative lack of them at Reading, where the signalling transfers to a new control centre this Christmas (maybe using the existing signals?) and over the next few years the remodelling will change the layout completely and remove any signals that were left.