Building P4 turnouts questions

[hayfield]

As you all know I enjoy building track and have wanted to see if I can build trackwork to P4 standards, I have just got some parts and gauges for P4 track making, and waiting for a few more bits to arrive. I brought some ply sleepers and rivets (s/h) and would like to try the ply and rivet construction. I am reading the Alan Downes Wild Swan book Building Track and his method has thrown up a couple of questions.

 

He only uses rivets at certain places, and uses C&L chairs in between. No problem with this. But the non riveted sleepers will be lower than the riveted sleepers when they are stuck down, wont this make the non riveted sleepers too low?

 

Should I make a fully rivited turnout first, or even build a copperclad type before building the fully rivited version.

 

Advice would be very welcome, thanks

 

Edit Wrong author should read Ian Rice

[10800]

Not quite sure what you are getting at here John, but I have found in the past the C&L chairs can hold the rail higher than it would be just by soldering it to the rivets. My solution if using a mix of chairs and rivets was to place the rail with all its chairs threaded in place, sitting on their appropriate sleepers, and then solder to the rivets first. The adjacent (unfixed) chairs would hold the rail at the right height and some gap-filling was done with the solder to make sure the rivetted sleepers maintained the right height.

 

Does that make sense or am I misunderstanding your question?

[craigwelsh]

The rivets are pretty much flush under the sleeper and as Rod says, the rivets need all the help they can get reaching the rail when you put plastic chairs next to them.

 

I've just bought up Rod's old bits of Exactoscale system which replaced the rivets with special etches for each location. There seem to be a slightly better match actually. Personally i've never understood why we've never got a 'P4' rivet as it can be a pain having to sand a bit off the current rivets when fitting the cosmetic chairs around them.

 

Note that if you get a rivet slightly off you need to chuck the sleeper and redo it or you'll be filing it down forever to get a cosmetic chair to fit. Even worse though is the thought of not having enough contact surface for soldering.

 

Personally I think you only need two rows of rivets across the main section of the crossing and check rails, on the switch side its two rivets anyway for the fixed parts of the blades and ideally rivet all the slide chair positions.

[davknigh]

John,

 

If you want to have an alternate source of information try Iain Rice's book "An Approach to Building Finescale Track in 4mm", Wild Swan, ISBN 1 874103 003. He goes through the whole process step by step for a number of different formations.

 

HTH

 

David

[Grovenor]

If you want to try ply and rivet, I would suggest using rivets throughout, you need to be a dab hand at the soldering when you mix up the plastic chairs with soldered rivets else you get melted chairs. Better to fit cosmetic chairs afterwards. Any surplus rivet heads are cleared away in seconds with an abrasive disc on a Dremel.

The best instructions for the Brook Smith method are here:

P4 Manual, track construction

P4 Manual tracklaying

Regards

Keith

[craigwelsh]

If you want to try ply and rivet, I would suggest using rivets throughout, you need to be a dab hand at the soldering when you mix up the plastic chairs with soldered rivets else you get melted chairs. Better to fit cosmetic chairs afterwards. Any surplus rivet heads are cleared away in seconds with an abrasive disc on a Dremel.

The best instructions for the Brook Smith method are here:

P4 Manual, track construction

P4 Manual tracklaying

Regards

Keith

8. Shape of switch rail after all tiling is completed.

 

Hehe. Apart from that little typo i'd agree these old notes are probably still some of the best out there.

 

I'd really recommend the Rail Droppers here to put on the rivets of some sleepers for electrical contacts by the way. I do have a connection as they were done mainly for us in Manchester but they work really well in giving a hidden connection. They are used pretty much as recommended in the old Protofour manual there which suggests all good ideas have been done before!

http://www.scalefour.org/eshop/eshop.html

[hayfield]

Thanks for your replies and tips

 

Dont know where I got Alan Downes name mixed up with Ian Rice (I think tiredness had crept in), I have Ians book and that is where I read about mixing the 2 methods.

 

I thought that the height that the rivet held the rail was the same as the height the chair held the rail. Thanks for the tip.

 

I also thought the rivet at the botton of the sleeper would be proud of the sleeper and would have held the riveted sleeper higher than the plain sleeper. I now have looked at the back of a riveted sleeper and see that it is nearly flush.

 

Thanks for the link to the P4 instructions, I have printed them off and will read them.

 

To date I have a small sweet tin full of rivited 9' sleepers and another 2/3rds full of punched sleepers. Cut timbers for 6 turnouts. Gauges and a tin of rivets. I am waiting for some more turnout timber strip, pre punched sleepers, rivets and a few more gauges. The photo is quite bad but I dont think there are any 3 point gauges with them.

 

On the basis that I will need some plain track to test the turnouts with I will make 2 sections up using the riveted sleepers. Should I tin the rivets first please.

 

I may build my first P4 turnout from PCB strip (as I am use to building with PCB), another thought is to build a EM gauge riveted turnout just to get some practice in using a different method but in a gauge I am happy with.

 

Do I need a 3 point gauge when building either an A5 or B6 turnout (I use them when building to EM turnouts) please. I will order a set from Alan Gibson if none arrive with the other stuff I won off Ebay.

 

Sorry for asking so many basic questions, I guess I should join a finescale club. Thanks for bearing with me

[scotcent]

I strongly commend Grovenor's comments re mixing rivets and plastic chairs

 

"On the basis that I will need some plain track to test the turnouts with I will make 2 sections up using the riveted sleepers. Should I tin the rivets first please."

 

I've never done so with brass or copper rivets and nickel silver rail. Do make very sure the rivets are clean (I usually use a fine file) before you start -- you can't move the rail aside to clean them later! Some have recommended solder paint or solder cream (very expensive!), but I've always used phosphoric acid flux and 145 solder. Do be sure to rinse the thing very thoroughly at the end of the day.

 

"I may build my first P4 turnout from PCB strip (as I am use to building with PCB), another thought is to build a EM gauge riveted turnout just to get some practice in using a different method but in a gauge I am happy with."

 

The trouble with PCB strip is that you can't easily add cosmetic chairs because the rail is sitting lower. It is very quick, but you've already done the time consuming bit, rivetting the sleepers. I wouldn't think that building an EM turnout is any easier than building it in P4 -- the precision bits are all set with the gauges

 

"Do I need a 3 point gauge when building either an A5 or B6 turnout (I use them when building to EM turnouts) please. I will order a set from Alan Gibson if none arrive with the other stuff I won off Ebay."

 

I normally use three 3 point gauges when building turnouts, plus often a couple of roller gauges. It's much easier if you have everything firmly and accurately held in place before whizzing along with the soldering iron.

 

The problem areas are the crossing, but the gauges should keep this right; and the switches. A trap into which I fell in the early days was not ensuring that the planing of the switches was accurate, and the set in the stock rail adequate, with the result that the gauge through the switches was too tight. I think there was a thread about this somewhere but I can't find it now.

 

"Sorry for asking so many basic questions, I guess I should join a finescale club. Thanks for bearing with me"

 

Have a go! At the very unlikely worst you've wasted a couple of pounds worth of components. The time spent is good learning time, and there's nothing succeeds like success!

 

Allan F

[davknigh]

 

Do I need a 3 point gauge when building either an A5 or B6 turnout (I use them when building to EM turnouts) please. I will order a set from Alan Gibson if none arrive with the other stuff I won off Ebay.

 

Sorry for asking so many basic questions, I guess I should join a finescale club. Thanks for bearing with me

 

IMHO a pair of three point gauges is an essential tool for track period and especially for turnouts. There is the added advantage that *if* you decide to follow the Rice method placing a gauge on either side of the rivet to be soldered works as a heat sink and keeps your chairs nice and tidy rather than melted and mucky

 

As to the questions, ask away!

 

HTH

 

David

[hayfield]

Thanks again for the replies, a couple of the questions are now redundant as the bits I won on Ebay arrived today.

 

The items in the parcel were as follows

 

Hole puncher / rivet press

2 x 3 point gauges

3 x check rail gauges

2 x flange rail gauges

6 packets of plain 8'6" sleepers

3 packs of turnout timbers

1 packet of rivets

 

I am over the moon a I paid £17.10 inc postage for this lot

 

I have already got lots or 9' sleepers, rivets, 6 x pre cut turnout sleepers packs, 3 roller gauges, check rail gauge and back to back gauge. So I am more than set up to have a go.

 

I use 3 point gauges to build EM gauge turnouts, and always planned to buy some if they were not in the package (by the way the photo of the equipment was very poor and I brought the items on a hunch not knowing exactly what was there).

 

I still plan to make a turnout with PCB timbers first, just to get used to the tollerences. I will use C&L 1.6mm timbers which matches the rail height of C&L flexi track, so I am guessing it will also match the rail height of the rivetted ply sleepers. As it can be used in a fiddle yard, there is no need for chairs. I will also build a couple of lengths of riveted plain track just to get used to the building method before starting a turnout.

 

With regard to the set point of the stock rails, Ian Rice in his book states to make a set in both straight and curved stock rails, when building EM gauge turnouts I only set the curved stock rail. Do I need to set both stock rails please ?

 

Thanks again for all the help.

[craigwelsh]

I knew I should have bid higher on those . I've been after more 3-point gauges of the old milled type.

 

Technically there should be a return joggle in the straight blade to get back to gauge after the joggle at the blade end. Using GWR parlance here where they called both bits a joggle!

[Grovenor]

With regard to the set point of the stock rails, Ian Rice in his book states to make a set in both straight and curved stock rails, when building EM gauge turnouts I only set the curved stock rail. Do I need to set both stock rails please ?

 

Only set both stock rails if you are building a 'Y' point. For a normal turnout put a set in the curved stock rail so it takes up the same angle as the switch rail planing. The curved switch blade should be filed to a nice fine point so it fits snuggly against the straight stock rail without any need for a set. Joggles as liked by the GWR are effectively invisible unless way overscale and likely to cause more trouble than they cure IMHO.

You might find something useful here.

[hayfield]

Thanks again lads for the replys, just going to print out some templates and get the soldering Iron out.

 

Craig sorry for out bidding you, the parts were in 2 lots but if it was any consolation I put in a much higher bid. If P4 is beyond me I will drop the 3 point gauges in the post.

[craigwelsh]

Thanks again lads for the replys, just going to print out some templates and get the soldering Iron out.

 

Craig sorry for out bidding you,

Hehe not a big problem, glad to see you trying out P4 and i'll see how it goes in your new thread .