N Gauge help for an OO numpty

[Flying Pig]

I've played with the point work - can I do without the double crossover at the top?:

Certainly. It just means trains can't depart clockwise from the inner platform

 

And with an island platform and extra crossover at the bottom:

I like the look of that, but it's clearly a wayside station, not so suitable for trains starting and terminating (no room for crossovers at the platform ends either).

[Chinahand]

Hi James,

 

As I see it the double cross-over is the only means you have of accessing the Goods Yard when travelling on the outer loop in a clock-wise direction so it would not, IMHO, be a good idea to delete them.

[jamest]

Hi James,

 

As I see it the double cross-over is the only means you have of accessing the Goods Yard when travelling on the outer loop in a clock-wise direction so it would not, IMHO, be a good idea to delete them.

 

Hi Trevor,

 

Couldn't the train travelling clockwise in the outer loop cross top right after the station, and enter via the third right hand point in the top right?

 

I need two more left hand points already - I'm not keen on buying two more rights as well - unless of course the plan is completely unworkable without them.

 

Cheers,

James

 

 

 

 

 

[Kris]

The only reason why the train should not travel anti clockwise on the outer track is that it is not prototypical, beyond that there is no reason why not to do it.

 

Can I just sound a warning. At the moment every plan that is produced is getting more complex and might be becoming very full of track. If might be worth looking at the plans to see how you could build them in stages so that as stock increases the layout can expand with it.

 

Having said that I like the island platform layout. I would move the platform to the curve and hide half of it, this would give the impression of a larger station and give room for a cross over should you decide you want it.

[jamest]

The only reason why the train should not travel anti clockwise on the outer track is that it is not prototypical, beyond that there is no reason why not to do it.

 

Can I just sound a warning. At the moment every plan that is produced is getting more complex and might be becoming very full of track. If might be worth looking at the plans to see how you could build them in stages so that as stock increases the layout can expand with it.

 

Having said that I like the island platform layout. I would move the platform to the curve and hide half of it, this would give the impression of a larger station and give room for a cross over should you decide you want it.

 

Hi Kris,

 

Thanks for the reality check - the layout has moved on a bit in track terms over the last few days - I do have most of what you see there with the exception of two l/h points. I think once I had opted for the two scene approach it was always going to have more track and points. The other thing I like about the more recent plans is the ability to run what I like stock wise as long as I, I mean we, are careful with the scenery and accessories. I quite like the idea of modern units and 66's crusing around too.

 

I think with creativity I can leave the track on the current base and build up around it with 'urban' walls and flats etc. I also prefer the island platform and I like the idea of moving it to the corner to maintain the cross-over.

 

I hope I'm not fustrating everyone with my changes of mind - I really value all the time you have spent looking at my problems. Altough we will run it ourselves and not really exhibit (except for on here of course) I like the 'feeling' of knowing it all makes sense in the real world.

 

With regard to the clockwise - anti clockwise discussion above - am I going mad? Trev mentions clockwise and you have mentioned anti-clockwise. As far as I see it we go primarily clockwise outer loop and anti clockwise inner loop with access to goods pretty much sorted by the point arrangement first shown (not the island platform version).

 

Thanks again,

James

[Kris]

I think that there is a little confusion James. I think that Trevor thought that you you wanted to remove the crossover that you kept rather than the second crossover that you did take out of Simons suggestion. (Is that right Trevor?)

 

Your assumption of standard direction of travel is correct.

 

I believe that Simon put in the pair of crossovers rather than a single one so that you could terminate a train on one platform then send it out onto the other track.

[locoworks]

check your PM's jamest

[Flying Pig]

I believe that Simon put in the pair of crossovers rather than a single one so that you could terminate a train on one platform then send it out onto the other track.

Quite so - the extra crossover was included to make the station more flexible and the layout still works without it. Freight trains aren't affected at all as far as I can see.

[Chinahand]

I think that there is a little confusion James. I think that Trevor thought that you you wanted to remove the crossover that you kept rather than the second crossover that you did take out of Simons suggestion. (Is that right Trevor?)

 

With all of these revisions it is getting quite confusing but I was referring to the 2 alternative plans shown in post #75.

[jamest]

With all of these revisions it is getting quite confusing but I was referring to the 2 alternative plans shown in post #75.

 

Hi Trevor,

 

This is the one I'm going to go with - I purchased two more left hand points today. Except I might make the platform emerge top left as an island between the tracks - but the point layout is the same.

 

I think I can access the goods yard top right going clockwise on the outer loop - Is that what you meant?

 

 

Cheers,

James

[Chinahand]

I think I can access the goods yard top right going clockwise on the outer loop - Is that what you meant?

 

Yes. That's what I meant. Glad we got there in the end.

[Kris]

Do you still need help with the wiring James? If so, have you got electrofrog or insulfrog points?

[jamest]

Do you still need help with the wiring James? If so, have you got electrofrog or insulfrog points?

 

Yes please Kris!

 

I'm using insulfrog.

 

I have a booklet on wiring the layout and I fancy cab control. I plan to borrow a gaugemaster combi off my mate and wire two controllers into three sections:

 

Inner loop

Outer loop

Yard

 

I plan to have insulated joiners on the crossovers and use ON-OFF-ON switches to set the sections to the different controllers, or off.

I plan to feed power to the inner and outer loops on the left hand hidden section and the loop on the right hand hidden section.

 

I don't plan any isolating places yet (other than the points and the three switches) - do you think I need them?

 

I only plan to pin the track down for now and experiment with the controllers and trains before I commit - I bought some 'N' track pins today - bet I bend more than I drive in!!

 

Any advice gratefully received.

 

Cheers,

James

[Kris]

It might be worth dividing the main lines in to two sections each, using the points as the dividing point have one section that is the station area one that is the other half of the layout. This will make the swapping of the trains between lines easier.

 

I would avoid track pins personally, too much risk of damaging the track.

 

I'll have a look at the rest of the wiring tomorrow (Christmas shopping allowing )

[jamest]

It might be worth dividing the main lines in to two sections each, using the points as the dividing point have one section that is the station area one that is the other half of the layout. This will make the swapping of the trains between lines easier.

 

I would avoid track pins personally, too much risk of damaging the track.

 

I'll have a look at the rest of the wiring tomorrow (Christmas shopping allowing )

 

Christmas shopping - sorry to hear that!

 

Here is a plan of my basic thoughts

Power feeds red triangles x3

isolated joiners red lines x4

3 sections highlighted

 

 

When you say two 'sections' per loop how would I achieve that?

 

Cheers,

James

[locoworks]

you may want to change that a little, the basic sections are ok, but if you wanted to travel between blue and purple directly, the green reverse? crossovers would also need power so all 3 sections would have to be live. this would mean you couldn't isolate a loco on the green bit on the left side. and to isolate in the green on the right BOTH lots bof reverse crossover would need to be changed to isolate power from the outer rail when theb green section is powered. if you have point motors with 2 SPDT switches attached you could isolate the green points and arrange their power feeds depending on which way the points at the junctioins are set. this would allow the green section to remain unpowered for the loop but to allow trains to cross the points. if?? you went DCC you wouldn't have any of this section and cab business to complicate things

[Kris]

Christmas shopping not started yet!

 

 

 

I have thought further about the electric's for the layout. As you said that you wanted the possibility of cab control in the future I have wired to give potential of this. For the red connections, these will need to be through dtdp switches, this will allow control by either of the main line controllers. The blue connector should be via a 3 way switch to allow for control by either the yard controller or either of the main controllers. I have divided the outer main line into the two sections that I suggested, but having considered the inner main, I felt that this needed to go to 4 sections to allow you to drive a train directly from the outer main to the yard, whilst isolation or allowing slow running of the train on this line.

 

Hope this make some form of sense.

[Flying Pig]

Looks like a good basic DC setup, Kris. You might also want to think about dividing the yard headshunt into sections to allow a couple of engines to be parked there. The only real drawback of this kind of arrangement is that it relies on the driver to set all the switches correctly before driving. In this respect, cab control - i.e. "switch every section I want to drive through to my controller" - is probably the easiest approach to understand.

 

However, I think you may have got a little confused as I can't see why the yard should be switchable among three controllers whereas the main lines can be powered only by one of two. Surely for cab control every section should be able to be switched to any of however many controllers James has?

[jamest]

hi guys,

 

I plan to use two controllers - three would probably be ideal but I think two will suffice.

 

When you say dtdp do you mean on-off-on (SPDT I thought)?

 

I plan the settings to be off, cab 1, or cab 2 - right? So the connections in those 6 positions are by these switches - And the rail breaks allow me to isolate trains in the appropriate sections. So common return for one rail and a switched feed on the other.

 

Do you guys just razor saw through to create rail breaks? or do you use proper plastic rail joiners (I have some)?

 

I notice there is a topic area dedicated to electrics - hope I'm not breaking any rules discussing it here

 

Thanks,

James

[Flying Pig]

DPDT is double pole-double throw, which allows you to switch both feed and return. Not required if you're using common return, but I'm not sure whether all controllers are suitable for that.

 

I've used plastic rail joiners in the past even though they are a little unsightly. They do keep the rail ends from coming into contact in the event the rail moves or expands and they maintain alignment provided there isn't a lot of stress. If you're using flexitrack, the joints at the top right on the clockwise main and goods loop might be tricky as they occur on or right next to sharp curves.

[jamest]

DPDT is double pole-double throw, which allows you to switch both feed and return. Not required if you're using common return, but I'm not sure whether all controllers are suitable for that.

 

I've used plastic rail joiners in the past even though they are a little unsightly. They do keep the rail ends from coming into contact in the event the rail moves or expands and they maintain alignment provided there isn't a lot of stress. If you're using flexitrack, the joints at the top right on the clockwise main and goods loop might be tricky as they occur on or right next to sharp curves.

 

Right I get it - DPDT would have 6 connections on the bottom instead of my three with SPDT switches.

 

You are worrying me a little about the controllers though - I have the basic Bachmann controller supplied with the set. In my booklet it doesn't mention any circumstance where common return would be unsuitable for a controller.

 

I've started to lay some track today and I'll post a picture later. I don't think I have enough insulated joiners - might require a dash to the shops! I also need another 3 SPDT switches (I only optimistically got 3!).

 

But it is certainly starting to make sense now - and convinced me I was right to go with DCC in OO!

 

Cheers,

James

[Kris]

However, I think you may have got a little confused as I can't see why the yard should be switchable among three controllers whereas the main lines can be powered only by one of two. Surely for cab control every section should be able to be switched to any of however many controllers James has?

 

 

At some point James had said about the possibility of a third controller for the yard area, (at least that is what my memory was telling me ) hence adding in the provision for this. I could have put every section to go for all controllers but felt that at the moment that was just adding complications.

 

 

[Kris]

 

Do you guys just razor saw through to create rail breaks? or do you use proper plastic rail joiners (I have some)?

 

 

I hand build my 2mm track and don't use joiners at all so feed power to all sections via a bus, but when I used N gauge I would use plastic joiners for insulating, much less hassle than going for the sawing option.

 

James, after all this, are you sure your not tempted by DCC in N?

 

 

 

[jamest]

I hand build my 2mm track and don't use joiners at all so feed power to all sections via a bus, but when I used N gauge I would use plastic joiners for insulating, much less hassle than going for the sawing option.

 

James, after all this, are you sure your not tempted by DCC in N?

 

 

 

 

Tempted - yes! But I'm committed to DC now!

 

I've just gone into Barnstaple to get some more insulated joiners and come away with a Gaugemaster Combi as well!

 

I am worried about the wiring to be honest - but as long as something will run on Xmas day I'll be happy.

 

I did mention three controllers but I think I'll stick with two for now - use the SPDT to switch between the two (or none!) on the various sections and hey presto.

 

On the track laying - I've been careful with the pins on the set-track curves and it has gone well. I have laid the curves on the right as a base. The flexi is a bit difficult to pin though as I can't drill a small enough hole in the flexi though - so its glue there. It is a pain having to produce a 30mm piece to space the streamline points to set-track line spacing but I'm getting there.

 

Apparently I have to write xmas cards tonight - so I might not be able to sneak out into the garage again today!

 

thanks again guys,

James

[Flying Pig]

*Not* a suggestion for this year, but I couldn't resist extending the layout in a "fills the board with track" fashion, adding a carriage siding (which will hold 4 coaches easily) and basic loco storage, to allow for the inevitable rolling stock creep.