eBay demands you sign in on bidding

[deltic79]

What happens if I and another bidder are both use a sniping prog? And it may be possible that we are both bidding the same max amount?

 

JD

 

Then the first bid in the door wins. They will be nanoseconds between the bids, so eBay will work out which one hit their servers first. I use Gixen, never failed me, sniped the last auction I won 2 seconds from the end, and that's the free version!

 

 

Given that auction snipers sign in for you, I don't see why they would have a problem with these 'new' eBay rules. Not experienced any to date.

 

Of course the flip side to this coin is that you've left yourself signed in to eBay (let's say on a shared computer) then by asking you to sign in prior to a bid, it protects you. I guess that's the reason eBay ask you to sign in again, to protect you.

 

 

[John_Hughes]

It's not that eBay isn't a 'real' auction - and it's not a Dutch auction either as the site claims, if I remember correctly; it's a Candle Auction, where higher bids are accepted right up until the timer runs out (or the candle goes out, if you want to be picky!)

 

One could argue that it would be more true to type - and would probably do away with snipe bidding altogether - if the auction closed at a random moment within, say, 20 seconds either way of the published finishing time.

 

I hope they don't take that on board!

[Dieselbob]

As F-UnitMad Wrote

Well if people want to bid less than they are prepared to actually pay, more fool them if they are out-bid!

 

One important thing to remember when shopping on Ebay is that it is A Market Place NOT a Bargain Basement.

Years ago, before Ebay, we would not have had the opotunity to buy most of the items that are for sale, they were sitting in boxes in lofts, rotting away.

Cheers

Bob

[cb900f]

Just to add to Funit mad's thoughts with which I am in full agreement.

If the seller is unhappy with the auction final price, perhaps they should have entered it on a "BIN". However am I right in thinking that ebay receive a larger % for BIN (have never sold on ebay so don't know for sure) ?

I view the dealings on e bay as some you win, some you don't, for both the seller/buyer. Thats life.

 

Pete

[shortliner]

It really isn't a problem - sign on and do the "keep me signed in" tick, decide how much you want to bid and enter it - and then only press confirm in the last ten seconds - if someone has entered a higher maximum bid you lose, if they haven't - you win. Simples tchik! - this is exactly how it has been since I started bidding several years ago. If you REALLY want something and it has a BIN, that is the one to go for.

 

 

[Neil]

I haven't been using e-bay that long but I've both bought and sold a reasonable amount of stuff in that time. I really, really don't see what the problem is in putting ones maximum bid in early is. Thinking that you're going to scoop up some item cheap by not showing your hand is a fallacy, you will have no idea if you're up against an early bidder with a higher maximum or someone sniping. Last minute bids can only deliver a false low price if everyone else, a/ plays to the same rules and b/ puts a higher bid in too late.

 

It may be galling when you loose something at the last minute and there may be the thought that if one had only managed to up the bid at the last moment the spoils could have been yours, but if you've set your maximum price, would you in the cool light of day want to have paid over the odds.

[Chris116]

I have no problem with being beaten at the last moment. On some items I will bid early with the maximum I am willing to pay and let things run there course. On others I will put in a bid at the last moment and see if I get lucky. What I was objecting to was being signed in with my name and ID showing at the top of the page, making a bid and being asked to sign in again which stopped a bid from being in time. Either you are signed in or you are not, I don't see why they want you to confirm your sign in. I may add that I joined eBay in 2001 and this has only happened to me twice and both times in the last two months. Both times were last minute bids which if I had not been asked to re sign in I would either have won or the seller would have got a fair amount more than they ended up with. I have made other last minute bids and the system has not asked me to sign in again.

 

What I asked eBay was why this happened on what seems to be a random basis and they could not or would not answer me. They said it was all system based. I therefore asked why the system sometimes wants you to sign in again and they said it was system based. Having got the feeling that I was going round in circles I gave up. I have informed both sellers what happened and they were both very cross that eBay had cheated them out of a higher price. Both have been told it is a security matter and that in the interests of security a member may be asked to sign in again at any time even if they have ticked the sign in for the day box!

 

The second time this happened to me I had only been on line for about five minutes and must have signed into eBay under three minutes before it demanded me to sign in again. Of the two itmes I have since bought one at a slightly higher price and picked up one at a much lower price so money wise I am in pocket but I still think eBay has cheated two of its sellers!

 

Chris

[spamcan61]

I haven't been using e-bay that long but I've both bought and sold a reasonable amount of stuff in that time. I really, really don't see what the problem is in putting ones maximum bid in early is.

 

Human beings are not rational robots, folks put in their 'final' bid early, then decide with 2 minutes to go that actually they'll bid some more....just one more bid.....ooohh then another one. Sniping in the dying seconds stops this behaviour.

 

I don't buy that much stuff on eBay, but my 'winning' rate went from about 30% to 90% when I gave up bidding early and switched to automated snipes - it does work - most of the time. OK if there are two early bidders with compulsive incremental 'maximum' bidding syndrome you're probably out of luck even with a snipe.

[EddieB]

I haven't been using e-bay that long but I've both bought and sold a reasonable amount of stuff in that time. I really, really don't see what the problem is in putting ones maximum bid in early is.

 

There are two types of problem that I see with this approach. The first, already remarked upon, is that you give other "real" bidders a longer time to mount a challenge to your maximum bid. Even if your bid wins, chances are that you'll be paying nearer to your maximum. Of course, there's also the danger that you'll get sucked into a bidding war if you find that your maximum has been beaten.

 

The second problem is "shill" bidding, where the seller gets a friend to bid against a real bidder to drive up the price. By leaving your maximum in the system, you're offering an opportunity for an unscrupulous seller to try it on. They can enter a number of incremental bids until they discover your maximum price (when your maximum beats their last bid by less than the full increment). If they go too far and the shill bidder actually "wins" the auction, nothing's lost (aside from listing fees) and the item can be re-sold at a later date.

 

I can't say I've knowingly come across shill bidding (if I had, I would report it), but you can see that it is attractive for potentially high-ticket items with few interested buyers. Of course it is illegal under eBay rules (rightly), but proving it and getting eBay to act are not easy.

 

Having said that, and while I normally "snipe", sometimes it is useful to get the first bid in, in the hope that no one will want to go higher. I did once encounter a problem where the snipe program wouldn't enter a bid "against" myself - has anyone had a similar experience?

[Kenton]

They can enter a number of incremental bids until they discover your maximum price (when your maximum beats their last bid by less than the full increment). If they go too far and the shill bidder actually "wins" the auction, nothing's lost (aside from listing fees) and the item can be re-sold at a later date.

 

Or, as seems to happen all too often to me - the seller does a second chance offer.

 

I nearly always refuse this as there has been some "step" bids by the winning bidder - difficult to prove beyond doubt they are a shill bidder. I always go on the principle that there will be another one along soon and it usually goes for less.

The great thing about a snipe bid is that you can make them conditional. I was bidding for a 66 and had a whole series of them lined up (everyone seemed to be selling) and some were finishing within seconds of each other all late at night when I'm away to work. I think it was the 4th one I actually won - I don't think I could have had my finger poised over so many screens and kept sense of it.

 

I will still put a marker bid in if there are no bidders - just to lock in the auction, but otherwise if I want it I'll snipe.

[Neil]

I haven't been using e-bay that long but I've both bought and sold a reasonable amount of stuff in that time. I really, really don't see what the problem is in putting ones maximum bid in early is. ......

 

 

There are two types of problem that I see with this approach. The first, already remarked upon, is that you give other "real" bidders a longer time to mount a challenge to your maximum bid. Even if your bid wins, chances are that you'll be paying nearer to your maximum. Of course, there's also the danger that you'll get sucked into a bidding war if you find that your maximum has been beaten.

 

The second problem is "shill" bidding, where the seller gets a friend to bid against a real bidder to drive up the price. By leaving your maximum in the system, you're offering an opportunity for an unscrupulous seller to try it on. They can enter a number of incremental bids until they discover your maximum price (when your maximum beats their last bid by less than the full increment). If they go too far and the shill bidder actually "wins" the auction, nothing's lost (aside from listing fees) and the item can be re-sold at a later date. .....

 

I think the logic behind these 'problems' is flawed, though I think I can see how it's evolved thus. If I can take them in the order given:

 

Problem one, competing bids. If all submitted their maximum early the one with the highest maximum wins, every time. The only way one can win with a lower maximum, let alone incremental bids up to ones maximum is if all other bidders who are prepared to pay more, likewise enter bids incrementally towards their max, but for whatever reason stop short before the auction ends. This would suggest that if you trully want something, decide what it's worth, enter one bid at your maximum. If you get it you get it, if you pay your max, well that's the value you asigned to the thing, you should be happy. If you're beaten then the other person had deeper pockets; odds on there'll be another one for sale sometime soon.

 

Problem two, shill bidding. Really it's the same as problem one, offer what the object is worth to you. If you get it for what you think to be a fair price then where's the problem. Surely you wouldn't offer more than you thought fair? If the shill bidder wins (and how would you know that a shill bidder has been taking part) well nothing is lost is it? You have the same belongings you had at the start of the auction and the same money in your bank account.

 

I suspect the problems are to do with not getting the thing at a price less than one considers fair. We all like bargains, but there should be no expectation that we have a right to a bargain.

[Kenton]

I suspect the problems are to do with not getting the thing at a price less than one considers fair. We all like bargains, but there should be no expectation that we have a right to a bargain.

No the problem is with individuals not bidding what they know to be their maximum but just step bidding to expose your maximum bid.

 

If genuine, they are doing this to bid "slightly" over your exposed bid potentially to get that bargain. This is how bidding wars start, each person step bidding until they expose and better the opponent's bid rather than bidding their absolute max from the start. In some ways many of us may have been tempted - we know what it is worth but are prepared to up the ante at the sight of losing it. It becomes a more wanted item if someone else also wants it.

 

If not genuine, the shill, the "auction" is ruined by the person selling the item. Instead of placing a genuine reserve on the item (which ebay does not seem to allow under £50) they place a low starter price (to evade charges?) then when they see only a single bidder or a low bid they shill up the bidding to make it look as if the item is more popular or simply to expose your bid. They of course then hope you will be tempted to increase the bid as above or the increased bidding attracts someone else.

 

This is not the only reason why I generally use a snipe program but it is one of the main reasons.

[EddieB]

Yes, this comes down to why I prefer generally to use a snipe program. Basically it's a "sealed bid" - I can enter my maximum early in the auction, but it isn't disclosed to any other party - neither the seller nor any other rival bidders.are aware that there's a potential bid going in seconds before the auction closes. Likewise, if everyone else followed this method, I have no knowledge of the existence of any other rival bidders, their intentions or maximum bids. Therefore I must bid the maximum I'm prepared to pay, or if it's an item that merits it, what I think will beat any rivals. If my bid is beaten fairly and squarely, there isn't time to be tempted in the heat of the moment into going higher than I'd decided beforehand in the cold light of day.

 

Is there scope for a rival auction site that works on this basis, rather than the "open" bidding style of eBay? Not sure that it's such a good thing from a seller's perspective - I'm sure many of the outcomes from bidding wars highlighted in the "eBay Madness" thread would have realised a lot less for the seller.

[Kenton]

I'm sure many of the outcomes from bidding wars highlighted in the "eBay Madness" thread would have realised a lot less for the seller.

The whole make-up of eBay has changed over the years.

 

It used to be all about the chance to dispose of items of questionable value that were just "junk" to the seller and was much more of a bargain hunt.

 

These days it has changed to being just like a shop or trading floor. With many "businesses" selling new and ex-stock items.

 

It used to be that second hand items realised low and very-low prices as they were used, old and of dubious quality. On eBay now, much of the same second-hand items go for sale at prices higher than the same item can be bought new almost as if they really were collectibles. This is also seen by the often very optimistic placed on many Buy-it-now items that are not even offered on auction.

 

A sealed bid auction would not be in eBay's interest - we have to remember their business model works on the competitive bidding and inflated prices.

[spamcan61]

Just to be clear I don't snipe to get a bargain, I snipe because:-

 

1) Time spent in front of a PC on manual incremental bidding is time wasted.

 

2) It makes life more difficult for the shill bidders, who are almost certainly acting illegally by artificially inflating the selling price. Shill bidding was much easier to spot before EBay made the bidding anonymous. :-/

 

3) No temptation to get involved in a heat of the moment bidding war.

 

EDIT...

 

4) I don't regard bidding on EBay as a hobby; if I bid on something it because I really want it, sniping maximises my chances of getting it for the price I'm prepared to pay.

[Neil]

A question if I may. It appears that using a snipe program is very similar to entering ones maximum bid earlier and sticking with it. The only difference is that it's done in the last seconds. Now I've no reason to doubt the reported increased sucess rate of those that snipe. It would seem to me that if I bung in my early maximum, and i'm bidding against a person using a snipe program then the result would be the same as two early maximum bids. The one that bids highest gets the spoils. this leads me to conclude that the only circumstances in which sniping could improve the sucess rate is when in competition against a silly bidder who has to have the item at any cost and will trump any bid that's placed. In effect it denies the silly bidder the opportunity to go a quid higher. Am I right? If I am, there must be an awful lot of fools out there in e-bay world.

[spamcan61]

...this leads me to conclude that the only circumstances in which sniping could improve the sucess rate is when in competition against a silly bidder who has to have the item at any cost and will trump any bid that's placed. In effect it denies the silly bidder the opportunity to go a quid higher. Am I right? If I am, there must be an awful lot of fools out there in e-bay world.

 

If we ignore the shill bidders than pretty much yes, and yes I think there are an awful lot of silly bidders out there....just one more bid...etc. Ebay bidding seems to be a hobby in itself for some people. I only use it when there's something I really want, I don't browse looking for 'bargains', and the majority of stuff I buy now is non model railway related and usually BIN.

[EddieB]

A question if I may. It appears that using a snipe program is very similar to entering ones maximum bid earlier and sticking with it. The only difference is that it's done in the last seconds. Now I've no reason to doubt the reported increased sucess rate of those that snipe. It would seem to me that if I bung in my early maximum, and i'm bidding against a person using a snipe program then the result would be the same as two early maximum bids. The one that bids highest gets the spoils. this leads me to conclude that the only circumstances in which sniping could improve the sucess rate is when in competition against a silly bidder who has to have the item at any cost and will trump any bid that's placed. In effect it denies the silly bidder the opportunity to go a quid higher. Am I right? If I am, there must be an awful lot of fools out there in e-bay world.

 

Effectively, yes. I may see something that interests me on eBay, let's say a book (as they account for most of my purchaes). I first check out other sites (amazon, abebooks, etc.) to see whether there are copies available (and how rare it may be) secondhand, or what level of discount is offered for a new book. If eBay offers the chance of a better price, then I will set my maximum accordingly. I would expect "rival" bidders to do the same, so I would try to get my maximum bid in before others do, because mine shouldn't exceed theirs by the full bidding increment (or theirs to beat mine by a full increment). If I lose out, then someone is prepared to pay more than they could buy the item for elsewhere. Silly bidders, in other words.