Sailor Charon Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 I mentioned that I had a Dapol 9F (n gauge) that was clicking. And that it had started clicking just before it locked up, but I'd managed to get it going again. Well, it's locked up again, and I'm wondering if, when I get it unlocked, I'm just making it more likely to lock up in the future? You see, the front axles have now got quite a lot of slop in them, with the wheels being able to turn through... I'd guesstimate at about 1/6 of a revolution - more than my other one (which has a broken chip and will not go backwards. It's been suggested that this may have been caused by a short in the motor.) Anyway, I was wondering two things. One, am I likely to be able to get them both fixed - one probably needs new gears, the other probably needs a new motor - or would I be better off cutting my losses and swapping the tenders over? Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Al Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 I've got a couple of 9Fs and another that I sold on. Two had clicks and both were narrowed down to the valve gear catching (I can't recall which part but it was around the slide bar area) - I'd start looking there. I've not seen gearing giving problems on these. Also oil the axle slots (a small amount) - one I had was stiff here. If the gearing is shot then the loco may be a write off - I don't know that spares are available (other than from another scrap loco). A replacement chassis would probably cost not much less than a new loco. You may be best making one good one out of the two ailing ones and keeping the rest as spares or scrapping it. Cheers, Alan I mentioned that I had a Dapol 9F (n gauge) that was clicking. And that it had started clicking just before it locked up, but I'd managed to get it going again. Well, it's locked up again, and I'm wondering if, when I get it unlocked, I'm just making it more likely to lock up in the future? You see, the front axles have now got quite a lot of slop in them, with the wheels being able to turn through... I'd guesstimate at about 1/6 of a revolution - more than my other one (which has a broken chip and will not go backwards. It's been suggested that this may have been caused by a short in the motor.) Anyway, I was wondering two things. One, am I likely to be able to get them both fixed - one probably needs new gears, the other probably needs a new motor - or would I be better off cutting my losses and swapping the tenders over? Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
corax67 Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 I am wondering if, possibly, the motor armatures have thrown a winding which might explain the clicking and lockup in this model plus the 'short' in the other? Time to dig out a magnifier maybe ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etched Pixels Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 If you have the option don't do too much digging - Dapol locos are a pain to get apart and back together - better to just return them. I guess the one good thing about the older Dapol N steam is they tend to die within guarantee 8( Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor Charon Posted January 5, 2011 Author Share Posted January 5, 2011 I am wondering if, possibly, the motor armatures have thrown a winding which might explain the clicking and lockup in this model plus the 'short' in the other? Time to dig out a magnifier maybe ? I'll borrow my Mum's reading glasses. They're very strong... Err, what am I looking for, exactly? If you have the option don't do too much digging - Dapol locos are a pain to get apart and back together - better to just return them. I guess the one good thing about the older Dapol N steam is they tend to die within guarantee 8( Alas, they're both out of guarantee. They had some good running - I used them to help me put the platforms down so they didn't cause problems. And then the platforms moved (Yes, I had glued them down), so I found myself trimming the platform edges to stop things catching. I'd had problems with them before - and only with them. (Apart from a B17 where the valve gear fell off. And a Jubilee that did the same. And a noisy and slow Hymek... But apart from them...) So much so that I'd got a little wary about running them... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted January 5, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 5, 2011 The one that has a lot of slop in it, have you checked the quartering on this one? It might be that this is out causing the slop and the jamming. I had this issue on a 45xx, but this went back to the shop as it was brand new. Hopefully with the new axle design on the latest locos Dapol have cured this issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Al Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I would strongly recommend not touching the quartering. The valve gear has plenty of slop to ensure any slight misalignments are not an issue (the gear does not 'drive' the wheels - much like the old Minitrix 9F), and the second and 4th wheels are not attached to the coupling rods at all (so their quartering is entirely irrelevant). As all wheels are geared it's possible to run with no valve gear attached. There is significant risk of causing much greater trouble if you remove wheels from axles they may not stay on as rigidly in the future - this is a known Dapol problem since they didn't use splined or squared axles on earlier models. I always take the approach of never touching a wheel on a Dapol axle as once off it'll never go on as stiffly again and could loose alignment or fall apart in the future. Fortunately Dapol's quartering seems to be pretty good in my experience. One thing that is worth checking is that all the gearing is correctly meshed in the sense that none of the 1st, 3rd or 5th wheelsets is out by a tooth relative to the others. The wheelsets can be unclipped and rotated to sort this. Again much like the old MInitrix 9F. Cheers, Alan The one that has a lot of slop in it, have you checked the quartering on this one? It might be that this is out causing the slop and the jamming. I had this issue on a 45xx, but this went back to the shop as it was band new. Hopefully with the new axle design on the latest locos Dapol have cured this issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted January 5, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 5, 2011 I would agree with you Alan, about not touching the quartering if it is good, but it is still worth visually checking to see if the quartering has slipped, it does happen, that's what caused the problems with my loco and I hadn't touched the wheels. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
corax67 Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Thrown winding - here goes If you look at the picture of the tender http://www.Dapol.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=131&Itemid=32 then the armature is seen behind where the decoder is sitting - it is the grey/green part with thin copper wire wrapped around it. A 'thrown winding' is where one or more of these copper wires has become dislodged from between the green coloured blocks and may be striking the magnets or, if it is on the section where the brushes make contact (the commutator) then it can jam there also. You need to be looking for a loop of the copper wire which looks out of line with possibly evidence of the enamelling having been rubbed off from contact. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Can a thrown winding be fixed or is it curtains for the motor? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
djgriff Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Hi my Dapol 9f started cliicking and finally lodcked up on the second day of a exhibition, on inspection the valve gear had been catching and bent one of the conrods which i managed to fix and is now running fine . all this i put down to rough handling as the Dapol valve gear is very fine and delicate. hope this helps. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor Charon Posted January 6, 2011 Author Share Posted January 6, 2011 Can I just thank everybody who's offered advice. I'm not ungrateful, just slightly bewildered at the moment. I've had a look at the valve gear on the clicking one (with the sloppy front wheels) [Wasn't that a song by Fleetwood Mac? The Clicking 9F (with the Sloppy Wheels)... Er no, no it wasn't.] and it looks ok. I try to pick locos up without touching the wheels in general, and the valve gear in particular. It had locked up once before, which I think might have been something stuck in one of the gears. I can't quite remember. The quartering looks ok too. With regard to 'unclipping the wheelsets'. How difficult is this to do? Would I need to take the body off? Would the gear on the leading wheel being out of alignment cause it to be sloppy? I'm sorry that I've got so many questions, but, when it comes to understanding why a loco doesn't work... its not (fortunately) something I have a lot of experience with. Unless it's really obvious like a part has simply fallen off. I've not had a chance to check the armature yet, but once I have, I'll let you know if I find anything. Or if I don't. I suspect, though I can't be sure, that a thrown winding probably is terminal. Apart from the fact I can't see how you get it back (short of completely rewinding) I have a feeling that if you did get it back, it would be more likely to do it in the future. So yes, to everybody who's answered my cry for help. Thank you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Al Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 With regard to 'unclipping the wheelsets'. How difficult is this to do? Would I need to take the body off? Would the gear on the leading wheel being out of alignment cause it to be sloppy? You need to remove the keeper plate. This uses some very small phillips screws - be careful with them as they are a bit soft and the heads can wear if you use a not-quite-fitting screwdriver. The wheels clip into slots, so won't spontaneously drop out, but easily unclip. If you do this also check that the pickups are making good contact - my black 9F had a whole side that wasn't making any contact, meaning only the tender was collecting current, causing increasingly intermittent running on non-perfectly-clean trackwork. On the subject of pickups, check the wires that connect the loco and tender are in good order and not broken (common failure - resoldering is possible though) You can also remove the body and then the top worm gear. This will allow the chassis to freewheel which might make it easier to find what's catching. Also allows oiling of this gear and its bearings. I've not had a chance to check the armature yet, but once I have, I'll let you know if I find anything. Or if I don't. I suspect, though I can't be sure, that a thrown winding probably is terminal. Apart from the fact I can't see how you get it back (short of completely rewinding) I have a feeling that if you did get it back, it would be more likely to do it in the future. It should be obvious if this is an issue - the motor simply won't start in some positions, and at really low speed will easily stop. Not so easy to check with this particular motor as it's sticky anyway. In terms of repair of damaged coils - it is possible. Often they become detached at the commutator for a variety of reasons - overheating, stray object in the armature etc and can simply be resoldered, and will last fine after this. I've done this on Dapol can motors, a couple of early UM can motors and Farish 3 and 5 pole armatures with success. Some failures will be in the windings themselves, and in this case you need a bit more luck - if it's on the outer visible side of the windings it can be possible to resolder, but sometimes it's a rewind (aka write off). The most important thing to try and determine is why a coil on a relatively new motor fails, so that you don't get the same again after you've fiddled to repair it, or replaced the motor. Often it's overheating because of stiffness in the drive or bearings - this can be seen in the current consumption - if it's high (> 250mA) then something is amiss. Most modern models run on less that 100mA, and a Dapol 9F should be somewhere around 125mA at mid speed going by my locos. Other reasons - foreign bodies in the armature region (track pins are alarmingly common I've found on some secondhand models etc) are easy to sort - remove them! Despite all this some will just fail and not be fixable (economically), but I'd be surprised if your 9F is like this given not that much use. Dapol motors seem reliable on this front, the ones I've seen have failed as result of stiff drivetrains or locking up wheels etc. If so it may be possible to susbstitute the motor for something else (Mashima?) - it's probably a standard size, and that's worth checking. HTH, Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
corax67 Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Thrown winding is not a kiss of death, armatures can be rewound - i used to do it a lot in my days of RC Car racing - it's not easy, especially in N but it is not impossible. Once it is rewound then it will be reliable, maybe even sweeter as there is the opportunity to balance the armature too. It is a bit on the teccy side but you don't need specialist tools just a bit of patience and I can easily run you up a step-by-step guide if needed. Keep the faith. Karl Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor Charon Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 Thanks for the help guys. It's a shame that I'm about as much use as a chocolate fireguard when it comes to fixing things. You see, I clicked out the front set, examined the gears, saw they looked ok - I had a nightmare of it missing teeth - and put it back. I thought I'd put it back ok. I hadn't. It then locked up altogether. Somewhere along the way, the tender drawbar came loose... Now there's only one wire between the loco and the tender, and I'm not going to even try to solder something so thin in such a confined space. I'm really sorry. I feel I've let you down with my cack-handedness and fingers of butter. I try very hard to be careful, but if anyone's going to not notice something... then it's me. If anybody's going to manage to under or over tighten something it's me. It's been a bad day. I hope yours have been better. I'm beginning to think N gauge isn't for someone as... (insert derogatory comment here) as me. Good night everyone. And may all our tomorrows be better than our todays. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Al Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Thanks for the help guys. It's a shame that I'm about as much use as a chocolate fireguard when it comes to fixing things. You see, I clicked out the front set, examined the gears, saw they looked ok - I had a nightmare of it missing teeth - and put it back. I thought I'd put it back ok. I hadn't. It then locked up altogether. Somewhere along the way, the tender drawbar came loose... Now there's only one wire between the loco and the tender, and I'm not going to even try to solder something so thin in such a confined space. I'm really sorry. I feel I've let you down with my cack-handedness and fingers of butter. I try very hard to be careful, but if anyone's going to not notice something... then it's me. If anybody's going to manage to under or over tighten something it's me. It's been a bad day. I hope yours have been better. I'm beginning to think N gauge isn't for someone as... (insert derogatory comment here) as me. Good night everyone. And may all our tomorrows be better than our todays. Sadly, the 9F is probably not the easiest model to cut your teeth on! With all the wheels and gearing, and more fragile construction than the more solid old Farish models, it's a fairly complex model. But, keep faith as others have said! Alternatively, if you feel it's just not something you're likely to have success with then drop me a line off list - I'd be happy to have a look at them or try and assist in some way. Best Regards, Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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