DCC choices - Digitrax or Lenz?

[Revolution Mike]

OK, first of all an apology for a topic/question that is very open ended! I will try to explain some of the the background.

 

First off I model modern image N. I have been using DCC for a fair few years now - a Lenz Compact and a Sprog. The Sprog is wonderful, the Compact less so!

 

Anyway I am getting to the point where the Compact is starting to be too limiting and I won't always have a laptop with me to run JMRI. I am starting to plan my next layout and trying to decide which DCC system to plump for.

 

The requirements are - decent functionality as a standalone and the possibility to hook up to a PC running either JMRI or probably RR&Co eventually. I would like the ability to implement some form of feedback even if I don't use it initially. Ultimately I would like something capable of both controlling points/signals and a degree of automation on a reasonable sized N layout. To complicate things further if possible I would like something relatively portable to take to demos. If possible it might be nice to add in a throttle controlled by an Iphone (but far from essential). There may be no perfect answer to all this!

 

OK, where have I got to. I think that I have discounted ECoS and Zimo on cost.

 

I like the NCE Powercab as a controller and I like the relatively modular upgrade path they have, but everything I have read points to the PC interface being a potential stumbling block - the USB version doesn't provide full functionality with RR&Co if I have understood correctly.

 

1. Digitrax - the Zephyr looks nice functionality wise, but I am not desperately keen on console style controllers. I could add a handset to it but by that point cost wise it might make more sense just to go for the Super Chief. The Super Empire Builder seems to have issues/limitations from what I have read.

 

2. Lenz - I like Lenz equipment and I have a good idea how it all fits together and works, but the LH90 and LH100 are very tired compared to a Powercab or DT402 handset. The new Lenz interface that is proposed to work with Touchcab sounds interesting. I also wonder about the wisdom of buying now when the LVZ200 is due out in the relatively near future.

 

Of course, there are 3rd and 4th options of:

3. buy nothing now and wait for new systems to come out or updates to existing systems. But that doesn't really solve immediate problems of wanting more functionality than the Compact! So 4th:

 

4. buy a relatively cheap but possibly limited set eg the Powercab now and fully functioned set in the future.

 

Any advice/comments etc most welcome. Or if there is anything crucial you think I have missed.

 

Thanks

 

Mike

[Nigelcliffe]

I think your analysis is fine.

 

If feedback from layout is wanted, then I think LocoNet (Digitrax) has more options than Lenz' bus. It certainly seemed the case when I studied the options carefully about three years ago when deciding between Digitrax and Lenz. LocoNet stuff for turnouts available from CML Electronics, Hans De Loof, and several others.

 

With Digitrax, I'd normally suggest chosing between Zephyr Xtra (new model) or Chief. However, given you own a Sprog, the main limitation of the Empire Builder (lack of programming track) is less serious. JMRI can be configured to work with two systems (Sprog + LocoNet) at the same time. There are a few alternative LocoNet handsets around from other makers, though if after "lots of features", the DT402 is the one to get. My personal preference is for simpler handsets.

 

I think NCE is fine for feedback from layout once you get a PowerPro system. Given you are considering Lenz LH100 and Digitrax Chief, you are in a similar price league.

 

Bottom line though might be to try a few handsets out to be sure they work for you.

 

 

I think iPhone (and similar touch screen devices) are going to be the future of throttles. Having used WiThrottle a fair bit now (iPhone interface for JMRI), it already offers features which are difficult to setup on conventional throttles. I am sure such things will get more advanced.

 

 

Its also possible to buy a PC in a power brick for a little over £100. Not the most powerful PC on the planet (and without a screen), but enough to run JMRI under Linux which can then be accessed from iPhones (and similar devices). Cheap, small and portable !

 

 

 

Footnote on Digitrax Zephyr Xtra and JMRI. There are a few minor differences in the LocoNet messages from the Xtra compared to the old Zephyr model which mean a few JMRI features don't yet work. These are being fixed, and I'd expect to see them resolved in days or weeks.

 

 

- Nigel

[Ron Ron Ron]

From what you've said, you've obviously thought this through.

The Lenz route may be the best for you, especially if you want the ability to use an iPhone, or iPod Touch in future (excellent wireless throttles on the cheap).

Like with the ECoS, you don't need a PC running to use these as wireless throttles, where as using them through a software program like JMRI does.

 

But as you say, that doesn't solve your immediate problem of wanting to upgrade now as the LZV200 and LH100 update have been delayed (A&H say they're not due now until this Spring).

 

The ECoS is not as far away cost wise from other systems since prices went through the roof, but it's still an expensive option.

 

As to feedback, it may also be worth considering the prospects with RailCom. Although the hardware is painfully slow in arriving (the manufacturers are all relatively small companies with limited development budgets) it will eventually become a real proposition and put current methods well and truly in the shade. If feedback is a long term aim and not an immediate requirement; I'd factor this into your decision making too.

 

One possible downside with Digitrax and NCE (as well as with other US makes, MRC and CVP) is that they are very much "plain vanilla" DCC at the moment, where as the leading European manufacturers are gearing their products towards the next generation of DCC functionality, including RailCom and easier user interfaces. That may not matter to most people, but if one has an interest in future developments it may be worth thinking about.

 

.

[Andy LMRG]

In responding please bear in mind I have never used Lenz and therefore cannot provide a comparison. On Digitrax we have the Super Chief which as you indicate becomes a more cost effective and fully flexible option than the Zephyr (like you not keen on it) and if you want more than one handset then that can be easily incorporated at a later date. The Digitrax stuff is small enough to easily box up for exhibition purposes although inevitably transformers weigh a bit. We use RR&Co which fully supports Digitrax and via the USB interface (avoid the MS100) works excellently.

There is no radio control on the hand sets (or at least there wasn't any authorised in the UK the last time I checked) although the DT402 supports infra red as standard. Reliability has been good (we do get spikes on our mains supply so I buffer the supplies to remove any spikes). Decoders are a real mixture but if you are going to go for automation at a later date with e.g. RR&Co buy better decoders so you can fully adjust speed settings (and in some cases use speed tables). Either way even cheaper decoders have worked within their limitations. There is more detail on our web site and if you have any specific questions use the response field there.

[Adrian Wintle]

Another consideration could be that your existing Compact will plug in as an additional throttle to a Lenz system (albeit with the 2-digit address limitation). I do this with my Set 100 - the 2-digit limitation isn't a problem for me as most of the operation is consists (North American N).

 

Adrian

[Revolution Mike]

Thanks folks for all the comments. I think that if Lenz were a little more proactive and quicker at getting stuff out then I would stick with what I know!

 

Nigel - interesting thought on the Super Empire Builder - I hadn't really thought that having a Sprog negated the downsides of it, but you are right.

 

Ron - I can patiently wait to Spring (probably)!

 

Adrian - you have reminded me of one of my bug bears with the Compact - 2 digit addressing, just makes avoiding clashes of numbers that bit more tricky!

 

Andy - thanks for the link to your website, it made for interesting reading.

 

Decisions, decisions! Every time I thought I had reached a decision over Christmas, I did a bit more research and read a bit more and ending up flip-flopping between them!

 

One additional question - any thoughts on ordering from the USA? Tony's Trains have what look like some good deals on Digitrax systems at the moment which even with shipping still makes them worth looking at.

 

Cheers, Mike

[Nigelcliffe]

Three observations:

 

Never buy with a requirement to use new stuff available "soon". Buy on what you can get today and what you can do today. Lenz have been going to do a new handset since just after Noah finished his boat. Digitrax announced their duplex wireless system which conforms to UK/EU radio frequency regulations at Warley just over two years ago. Neither is on the market as I write. I could go through every other maker with similar missing products which have been announced and never got here.

 

If buying from the states, you accept that support is from the states. Which might catch you for postage and duty on a return. As I understand US retailing, you deal with the manufacturer if you have a fault, not the retailer. Expect to pay duty, VAT and the charge for collection of those taxes on delivery of your new system.

I bought in the UK from a specialist. I have UK/EU rights on a purchase (retailer must sort faults, not palm you off to manufacturer). Those rights to place a cost on businesses, which in part accounts for price differences after tax. My Digitrax system was replaced at no cost, no postage, etc, almost a year after I bought it due to an obscure bug (bug was hitting my possibly unusual use quite badly); it was replaced by returning my unit *after* the replacement was here, and the replacement carries a hand-written note taped to the bottom about checking it specifically for absence of the bug from AJ Ireland (designer/owner of Digitrax in the US).

 

If planning to go to iPhone (and similar devices), then they already work via computer to all of the major DCC suppliers with systems which have a computer interface except MRC/Gaugemaster. And as a computer can costs a lot less than some makers computer interfaces....

 

 

- Nigel

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

If it were me I would search up a heavily discounted Super Empire Builder. That gets you the DT40? controller which is too good to miss. You get the twenty loco stack ( NCE basic is only two ) and 5 amps of power. You have a SPROG so the lack of CV read is conquered. The SEB will write CV's but won't read them.

 

To be candid, the adjustment of CV's is not something you need to do every day or indeed every session and it is no problem to pull the loco off onto a separate track to allow the SPROG to work it's magic. it was certainly a combo that did for me for over a year. It was only the acquistion of sound chips that started the rot and the purchase of separate dongles for each make of sound chip.

 

I sold my SPROG and bought a Zephyr and a LocoBuffer ( which I have never really used ). The Zephyr came in handy as an auto reversing power district and the third throttle is dead handy.

 

I love my Digitrax DT400 throttle and I love the Digitrax philosophy that everything must work however old it is, with everything else. Digitrax is very capable of hooking up with RR&Co and incorporates a level of automation that I will never aspire to but it is useful to know it is there.

[locoworks]

Three observations:

 

Never buy with a requirement to use new stuff available "soon". Buy on what you can get today and what you can do today. Lenz have been going to do a new handset since just after Noah finished his boat. Digitrax announced their duplex wireless system which conforms to UK/EU radio frequency regulations at Warley just over two years ago. Neither is on the market as I write. I could go through every other maker with similar missing products which have been announced and never got here.

 

 

- Nigel

 

i'd go for digitrax, but i have it myself, chief ( old and new types ), empire builder ( cos it was the cheapest way to get a DT400 and DB150 booster ) and the older zephyr ( i wanted a play ). as to Nigels radio comment, the duplex radio from digitrax DOES conform to UK/EU frequency regulations by design, BUT there is some severe slackness in sorting out a licence for it to make it legal . you may find?? that it can be purchased from 'some' outlets in the states and posted to europe. i like the fact the UR92 doesn't have horrrid little green aeriels like the UR91 uses with the older ( but still available ) simplex stuff .

[Etched Pixels]

I'm a Digitrax fan for controllers - PR3 is a nice PC interface (and can do other stuff like Digitrax sound downloading), and I like the Zephyr plus another controller set up I have. Not so gone on some of the Digitrax decoders though.

 

For wandering around I have wireless and JMRI so Android or iphones are quite happy as controllers as well.

 

 

Two other comments

 

- The first units of anything new usually suck. Expect to need software upgrades to make it work reliably, battle weird compatibility funnies and the like as they work through the bugs/oddities. That's one reason I'm a big fan of letting other people buy the newest/greatest electronic gadgets to debug them for me.

 

- Another option is to put a booster on the sprog and just run Sprog + JMRI + android/iphone/etc

[Revolution Mike]

Thanks once again folks for all the comments.

 

Cheers, Mike