ianwales Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Hi All Did any of the GWR's Oil Burning Halls or Castles survive long enough as Oil Burners to carry either "British Railways" wording in GW style on the tender or the BR Early Crest and is there a photo of one of them in the net or in a book? Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 According to the RCTS Locomotives of the GWR volume 8, all five oil burning castles were converted back to coal between September and November 1948. All of the eleven Halls were reconverted between September 1948 and April 1950. The book only has one relevant but undated photo of 3954 (5986) Arbury Hall with G (crest) W on the tender. So, no evidence there of them carrying a BR livery... Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 The experient didn't last that long into BR times. Out of curiosity, what did the tender arrangement look like ? Specifically thinking about the lack of coal and how the top would have looked... dilbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Russell, Pictorial History of GW Engines vol 2 has a photo and drawing of Ashwicke Hall in oil burning form, also with G (crest) W on tender. The entire coal space is filled by an oil tank that extends about one foot above the tender sides. The tank extends back to cover about half of the water pickup dome. The upper sides of the tank are angled inwards, presumably for loading gauge clearance and there is a large central filling cap on the top. A few other protrusions are, presumably, a fuel gauge and vents. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Found it - this could make for an interesting little tender project and also the sliding shutter arrangement on the cabside window. I wonder what that was about ?... dilbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 No idea, but the way Russell invites us to notice it suggests it is an oddity of the oil burners, and it's also visible on the photo of Arbury Hall I mentioned earlier. I'd not noticed these shutters on larger engines before, though they are a later fitting (but probably unconnected) on most of the prairies. Perhaps it was an attempt to deflect fumes from the cab??? Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 8, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 8, 2011 Found it - this could make for an interesting little tender project and also the sliding shutter arrangement on the cabside window. I wonder what that was about ?... dilbert The shutters were - as I understand things - something to do with lighting up and they were supposed to be pulled back into position when the burners were being lit according to men I've talked to who worked on the oil burning locos (presumably to reduce side draughts perhaps as the burners were being lit and possibly to influence cross draughts at other times when the firebox doors had to be opened?) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Now that you mention that, Mike, I have a very dim recollection of hearing or reading something like that before... Maybe it was you? Anyway, sounds more plausible than my guess. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 No idea, but the way Russell invites us to notice it suggests it is an oddity of the oil burners, and it's also visible on the photo of Arbury Hall I mentioned earlier. I'd not noticed these shutters on larger engines before, though they are a later fitting (but probably unconnected) on most of the prairies. Perhaps it was an attempt to deflect fumes from the cab??? Nick I remember reading somewhere, with reference to some of the 43xx Moguls, that the shutters were fitted as part of the wartime 'blackout' equipment. As well as the loco types already mentioned, I've also seen pictures of them on 42xx, 72xx and 56xx engines - none of those were converted for oil burning, were they? Maybe, as you suggest, they were fitted to different classes for different reasons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 9, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 9, 2011 Now that you mention that, Mike, I have a very dim recollection of hearing or reading something like that before... Maybe it was you? Anyway, sounds more plausible than my guess. Nick I don't think I've written it on here before Nick - but I might well have written it somewhere else (I don't think I did but as I used to do quite a lot of stuff on GW locos it might have crept in!). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Great Western Pictorial No 2 (Wild Swann) has many shots taken from behind of the oil fired 28XX locos. I had been wanting to build an oil fired Garth Hall as I know my Grand father drove it. It was also the only hall to enter service oil fired with a small tender and retaining its original number, not being renumbered to a few months later. Only when this book was published could I find sufficient detail to produce the tank. I always assumed the tank would be central in the tender - it's not My records show 11 Halls, 5 Castles, 20 28xx and a mogul were all so fitted. 3900 St Brides Hall also had electric lights fitted at the same time. Lesser known is one pannier tank no 3711 was oil fired as part of an experiment for one man operation - but the unions were not having that! During my research I have found no shots of any oil fiored loco in BR livery apart from the Pannier tank which did not return to coal firing until 1959. As reconversion was during 1948 BR livery is unlikely. Crownline used to produce a conversion kit for the 4,000 gallon version that included basic plans etc. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 The smaller tender is interesting, Mike. The tank appears much shorter than the one shown in Russell (see my post #4 above). It also lacks the very prominent filler cap. btw, re-conversion started in 1948 but three halls, 3903/4907, 3952/6957 and 3954/5986 lasted until 1950 before being restored to coal burning. Nick EDIT: just found a photo of 2884 class 4855/3813 with one of these smaller tenders. The tank size is very similar ro yours, but it has the large filler at the rear centre, roughly where the pipe enters the top of the tank on yours. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I have only found evidence of the large fillers on the 4,000 gallon tenders. The smaller 3,500 gallon type had a filling point being at rail level between the rear and middle wheels. ( Some GWR preserved mainline steam have water fillers in the same place to avoid the overhead live wires). Page 104 of GWR company servants shows the filling process. There was a large square section spike device at the front, I believe a float gauge (confirmation required) at the front of the tank, mine has broken off with handling. I must look in the Crownline kit to see if the filler is there. Had it 25 years and never opened it. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 The photo of the 2884 is in RCTS part 9. Partly hidden behind the tender is a structure somewhat like a water crane but with longer counterbalance arm and narrower pipe, Presumably this is the device for filling by the top cap. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I do not have that one. My only shots of 4855 are Norman Lockett shots but as is often the case they are taken from the front and contain very little useful detail of the tender. The crane filler was certainly used for the 4,000 gallon types, but this is the first time I have come across the arrangement for the 3,500. There are few photos about, especially with many of the 28xx operating from Wales, many of which were stored towards the end as oil supplies ran short and reserved for the 4-6-0 fleet. However 4855 was a Swindon engine throughout the experiment, so I wonder if that had an effect on the situation. 5955 had the small tender switched to a 28xx when a 4,000 became available, again a Swindon engine. The plot thickens Thanks for that one. I will follow this one up Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianwales Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 Hi all Thanks for the responses so far, there is a good shot of the bunker and oil tank of the 57XX in Lyons's GW Engine sheds. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 9, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 9, 2011 The pannier experimentally converted to burn oil was not so converted until 1958 and according to Swain/Haresnape ran on trials at Old Oak Common and Swindon before being converted back to coal in 1959. A photograph suggests that the filler was on the top of the tank in the bunker. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted February 9, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 9, 2011 The pannier experimentally converted to burn oil was not so converted until 1958 and according to Swain/Haresnape ran on trials at Old Oak Common and Swindon before being converted back to coal in 1959. A photograph suggests that the filler was on the top of the tank in the bunker. RCTS Part 12 (picture M63) has a picture of at it Swindon still with oil tank in 1963 after withdrawal. The Picture in GWR Sheds is at Swindon 1960 Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I remember reading somewhere, with reference to some of the 43xx Moguls, that the shutters were fitted as part of the wartime 'blackout' equipment. Having found the book where I thought I had read this ('Locomotives of British Railways' by Casserley and Asher), I should correct what I said. The engines were of the 22xx class, not 43xx, and they were built during WW2 without cab side windows for blackout reasons, not with cab shutters. (But apart from that, I think I got everything right ). They got cab windows later. Incidentally, there is a picture in that book of 2839 (renumbered as 4804) fitted for oil burning. The picture is taken from "3/4 rear", but the picture quality isn't great, so I don't know how useful it would be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WR Tim Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 The pannier experimentally converted to burn oil was not so converted until 1958 and according to Swain/Haresnape ran on trials at Old Oak Common and Swindon before being converted back to coal in 1959. A photograph suggests that the filler was on the top of the tank in the bunker. Surprised they bothered to convert it back in 1959. Weren't the 57xxs into mass cull mode by then? Wouldn't it have been cheaper to scrap that one and keep one of the others, or had it been freshly overhauled for the oil burning trials? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted February 11, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 11, 2011 Surprised they bothered to convert it back in 1959. Weren't the 57xxs into mass cull mode by then? Wouldn't it have been cheaper to scrap that one and keep one of the others, or had it been freshly overhauled for the oil burning trials? They didn't, the source is wrong, it was scrapped in '63 still an oil burner. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oil-burner Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 The attached scan of a GWR Drawing Office 'official' photo of the Oil Filling Depot at Swindon dated 28.3.47 should be out of copyright by now and shows more detail of the 'filling device' referred to plus the pipe runs. Not sure if this has been aired before, an interesting scene for someone to replicate maybe? Ken... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 By the way, the March 2011 issue of Backtrack has three photographs of GWR oil burners (two Halls and a 28xx). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium M.I.B Posted February 27, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 27, 2012 As a fuels engineer I am a little agog at the "spalsh" filling of the oil burner tenders. These days they would have to be "bottom filled" - much like the description of the rail level connections as above. I cannot see any form or electrical bonding either! Then again I suppose a steel engine on steel rails is pretty well earthed. I would also put a tenner on the bottom fill lines not having "dry break" couplings, meaning that there would have to be a system of simple ball valves on the hose end and the tender. This would entail a sequence of connection and disconnection. You can bet that there was a fair bit of oil leakage. I am also wondering what the gentleman on the tank top is holding in his right hand - some sort of positioning handle to avoid him touching the wet oily end? Or a dip stick? Mike - thanks for getting the plans for the 3500gallon tender oil tank published in this months RM. Did you happen to draw up plans for the 4000 by any chance? If so, is there a definitve list of the Halls and Castles which got converted? Thanks in advance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 ...If so, is there a definitve list of the Halls and Castles which got converted? According to RCTS part 8: Castles: 100A1 1/47-9/48 5039 12/46-9/48 5079 1/47-10/48 5083 12/46-11/48 5091 10/46-11/48 All had 4000 gallon tenders except 5091 which had a 3500. Halls: 3900/4968 5/47-3/49 3901/4971 5/47-4/49 3902/4948 5/47-9/48 3903/4907 5/47-4/50 3904/4972 5/47-10/48 3950/5955 6/46-10/48 3951/5976 4/47-11/48 3952/6957 4/47-3/50 3953/6953 4/47-9/48 3954/5986 5/47-2/50 3955/6949 5/47-4/49 All were renumbered on conversion except 5955 (10/46). All reverted to their old numbers when converted back to coal firing. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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