Irishswissernie Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I have just acquired several thousand 3.5 x 2.5 negatives dating back to the 1960's and am scanning them as time allows. This one shows a northbound freightliner at Garstang on 23 September 1967. Immediately behind the locomotive is a surburban brake coach. Does anyone know why? In the back of my mind is that there was a dispute with where the guard had to travel and the coach was provided solely for his comfort. Can anyone confirm this or otherwise. Eventually this will be uploaded to my fotopic collections. About 40 from 1967 are already on the Railways of the North Gallery and feature mainly steam from Warrington through Wigan and Preston to Garstang. Amongst the others still to be scanned are several hundred covering the Southern Region including many EMU images from 1967-9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 10, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 10, 2011 I have just acquired several thousand 3.5 x 2.5 negatives dating back to the 1960's and am scanning them as time allows. This one shows a northbound freightliner at Garstang on 23 September 1967. Immediately behind the locomotive is a surburban brake coach. Does anyone know why? In the back of my mind is that there was a dispute with where the guard had to travel and the coach was provided solely for his comfort. Can anyone confirm this or otherwise. You are correct. Various things were tried including a 'caboose in container form' but the interim solution was using whatever redundant passenger train brakes that could be found and were suitable. The final solution was to allow the Guard to ride in the rear cab of the loco - after lots of 'discussion' with the unions. The ultimate solution was to do away altogther with the Guard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 The caboose was pretty short lived because the 'Ridemaster' bogies on freightliner flats aren't designed for riding comfort. I understand the guard got a pretty rough ride. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
balders Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 There is a thread on this topic......was looking at it a few months ago......but I'm at work and unable to search..... Guy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 There is a thread on this topic......was looking at it a few months ago......but I'm at work and unable to search..... Guy There was indeed: My link Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irishswissernie Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 That was quick! Thanks everyone for confirming this. Back to the scanning! regards Ernie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Thanks for posting this Ernie. Twas I who created the other thread and I am still mystified over one thing. How did the guard keep warm / boil his water ? The loco in Ernie's picture is a normal Brush Type 4. Many had steam generators, but not all, and some diesels that weren't fitted still had the steam "bag" on the bufferbeam. The absence of any leakage of steam even though it is only one vehicle to heat, suggests that this example wasn't being steam heated IMHO. The alternative might have been to install a coal fired stove a la freight brakevans, but the few images i've seen of these ex passenger brakevans doesnt suggest stovepipe through roof, which may have loading gauge implications anyway. I can't imagine NUR union reps agreeing to their electorate riding in vehicles without any heating, so what was provided for that brief period ? Love to know Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 The loco in Ernie's picture is a normal Brush Type 4. Many had steam generators, but not all, and some diesels that weren't fitted still had the steam "bag" on the bufferbeam. The absence of any leakage of steam even though it is only one vehicle to heat, suggests that this example wasn't being steam heated IMHO. Pure conjecture Phil, but that pic's from September - usually not too cold, and perhaps the intention was to roster boilered locos in the heating season. At the time that the passenger brakes were thought to be the way forward, 47s were pretty much the only locos working liner trains*, and finding a dual braked, boiler fitted example wouldnt be too difficult. * This might be imagination rather than conjecture, but I'm not sure if I recall mention of some of these vans being electric wired for use on the AC lines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Great photo - notice the Secondman in mid-sip of his "billy-can" cup............ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberdeenBill Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 It is a great photo and there aren't so many others of Freightliner trains with passenger brakes. There also seems to be something odd about the sleepers of the up line in the foreground? Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Looks like alternate sleeper bays have been cleaned out of ballast. I think at one time they were permitted to do this at line speed (the track is jointed so less risk of buckling) before re-packing the ballast. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted February 10, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 10, 2011 Looks like alternate sleeper bays have been cleaned out of ballast. I think at one time they were permitted to do this at line speed (the track is jointed so less risk of buckling) before re-packing the ballast. "Opening Out" was often done a couple of days prior to relaying before the coming of the Big Yellow Toys. IIRC the TSR was put on midweek and ballast was then removed from most of the beds. The remained would be dug out on Saturday night as the track panels were lifted out. Great fun digging out 18" of clay by hand on a wet night ready for deep ballasting, especially by the light of a tilley lamp. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Presumably the suburban brakes had to be fitted with air brakes or piped through as they were all vac braked! I remember some formations at Camden when the brake coach was at the rear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 11, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 11, 2011 Thanks for posting this Ernie. Twas I who created the other thread and I am still mystified over one thing. How did the guard keep warm / boil his water ? The loco in Ernie's picture is a normal Brush Type 4. Many had steam generators, but not all, and some diesels that weren't fitted still had the steam "bag" on the bufferbeam. The absence of any leakage of steam even though it is only one vehicle to heat, suggests that this example wasn't being steam heated IMHO. The alternative might have been to install a coal fired stove a la freight brakevans, but the few images i've seen of these ex passenger brakevans doesnt suggest stovepipe through roof, which may have loading gauge implications anyway. I can't imagine NUR union reps agreeing to their electorate riding in vehicles without any heating, so what was provided for that brief period ? Love to know The simple answer - if other Regions bothered to copy it - was used on the WR for some parcels (and probably milk) trains, a gas heated brakevan (I think they were either Collett or Hawksworth vehicles but am not sure without a lot of delving. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Pure conjecture Phil, but that pic's from September - usually not too cold, and perhaps the intention was to roster boilered locos in the heating season. At the time that the passenger brakes were thought to be the way forward, 47s were pretty much the only locos working liner trains*, and finding a dual braked, boiler fitted example wouldnt be too difficult. * This might be imagination rather than conjecture, but I'm not sure if I recall mention of some of these vans being electric wired for use on the AC lines. Seeing as you mention it Pennine, I can't recall a single image of an AC hauled liner with a brake coach in the formation. Regarding Roy the bus' comment, I doubt they'd have converted the coach, merely given it "blowthrough" (twin) pipes and a gauge and setter in the van, as well as Mike's suggestion of possible propane gas heating. After all, wasn't it propane in the 10' brake van bubbles that these vehicles replaced ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Colin Posted February 11, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 11, 2011 I clearly remember a pic in a 1967(ish) "Railway Magazine" featuring a Freightliner train with suburban brake - in this case it was of ex-LMS design and also appeared to have had the compartment windows blocked out in maroon! I'm assuming it must also have been at least piped through as well. At a guess, perhaps the extra paint job was a temporary measure to prevent these coaches being marshalled into ordinary passenger or parcels trains. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 The ones I rememebr seeing were usually mk1 suburban brakes, 57', probably ex WR or Midland. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberdeenBill Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 There were 60 of these brake coaches, reportedly renumbered into the wagon series: Lot Prefix Number series 3598 B 963901 963904 Derby Works 1966 3601 B 963905 963916 Derby Works 1966 3614 B 963917 963922 Derby Works 1967 3643 B 963923 963960 Swindon Works 1967 I think I've seen a list of the original carriage numbers, somewhere... There's one on Paul Bartlett's site in later use as a breakdown support vehicle. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
balders Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Copy and pasted from previous thread, courtesy of Andy D........... "From chapter 7 of "Life & Times Series - Freightliner" by Michael J Collins, OPC 1991 ISBN 0-86093-455-1 The chapter's by Roger Silsbury and lists the vehicles as follows... Number/Donor vehicle type & Number/Converted at B963901 BG M30820M Gushetfaulds 06/66 B963902 BG M30926M Gushetfaulds 06/66 B963903 BG M30962M Gushetfaulds 06/66 B963904 BS S43383 Garston 06/66 B963905 BSK S4251S Garston 06/66 B963906 BS S43382 Garston 08/66 B963907 BG M31065M Longsight 07/66 B963908 BS E43136 Derby 07/66 B963909 BS E43155 Derby 07/66 B963910 BS E43119 Derby 07/66 B963911 BS M43277 Derby 08/66 B963912 BG M30951M Derby 08/66 B963913 BS M43247 Derby 08/66 B963914 BS M43283 Derby 09/66 B963915 BSK M26304M Derby 10/66 B963916 BSK E26579M Derby 10/66 B963917 BS E43194 Derby 11/66 B963918 BS M21036M Derby 11/66 B963919 BS M43257 Derby 11/66 B963920 BSK M26233M Derby 12/66 B963921 BSK M5722M Derby 01/67 B963922 BSK E26360M Derby 01/67 B963923 BS E43133 Swindon 03/67 B963924 BS E43114 Swindon 04/67 B963925 BS E43115 Swindon 04/67 B963926 BS E43126 Swindon 06/67 B963927 BS E43132 Swindon 06/67 B963928 BS E43134 Swindon 06/67 B963929 BS E43135 Swindon 06/67 B963930 BS E43139 Swindon 06/67 B963931 BS E43144 Swindon 06/67 B963932 BS Sc43342 Swindon 07/67 B963933 BG M30427M Swindon 07/67 B963934 BS Sc43311 Swindon 07/67 B963935 BS Sc43313 Swindon 07/67 B963936 BS Sc43201 Swindon 07/67 B963937 BS Sc43340 Swindon 07/67 B963938 BS Sc43315 Swindon 07/67 B963939 BS Sc43227 Swindon 07/67 B963940 BS Sc43199 Swindon 07/67 B963941 BS Sc43330 Swindon 07/67 B963942 BS Sc43331 Swindon 07/67 B963943 BS Sc43215 Swindon 08/67 B963944 BS Sc43332 Swindon 08/67 B963945 BS Sc43202 Swindon 08/67 B963946 BS Sc43212 Swindon 08/67 B963947 BS Sc43314 Swindon 09/67 B963948 BS Sc43218 Swindon 09/67 B963949 BS Sc43200 Swindon 09/67 B963950 BS Sc43322 Swindon 09/67 B963951 BS Sc43316 Swindon 09/67 B963952 BS Sc43326 Swindon 09/67 B963953 BS Sc43341 Swindon 09/67 B963954 BS Sc43335 Swindon 10/67 B963955 BS Sc43321 Swindon 10/67 B963956 BS Sc43337 Swindon 10/67 B963957 BG M30685M Swindon 10/67 B963958 BG M30735M Swindon 10/67 B963959 BG M30739M Swindon 10/67 B963960 BSK M26463M Swindon 11/67" Guy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberdeenBill Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Many thanks Guy. Next question: did the ex-Southern Region coaches maintain their green livery? Thanks. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.