RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted January 29 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 29 Work in progress. Parkside BR van backdated to as built. The body of the kit has the strapping of the first 300 built to diagram 1/242 in 1952-4. It would also be suitable to create the post WW2 LMS van or BR diagrams 1/240 and 1/241 if put on a 9ft wheelbase chassis with the correct brake rigging. Roof needs another coat then transfers and weathering. I realised when I took the photo that it is also missing a lamp iron. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted January 29 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 29 (edited) On 02/12/2023 at 19:27, teeinox said: I thought it worth photoshopping the photo to see if the colour could be improved. It could be: it makes a rather "Hornby Dublo" scene, especially those refrigerated containers in the top right hand corner. Interesting shot. It covers a whole lot of bodies and modifications. The two closest to the camera are the final BR diagram 1/246, Next to those is a BR 1/142 with steam heating removed. This is the one produced by Parkside.The fourth one is probably BR still with the steam heat. First one in the right hand line looks like a Southern D.1478 wrong hinges, more like LNER as suggested below with the steam heat removed. Second is a late LMS or Early BR still with steam heat. The FM containers must have been drafted in because of a shortage of insulated vans. The final van at the top edge is a late BR one. Edited January 30 by TheSignalEngineer Van type updated 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cwmtwrch Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 39 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said: The fourth one is probably BR still with the steam heat. It is; the narrow planks suggest it's a 1/241 or a first lot 1/242. 41 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said: First one in the right hand line looks like a Southern D.1478 with the steam heat removed. The short hinges make me think it's a converted ex-LNER D140. 47 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said: The final van at the top edge is a late BR one. Another 1/246. 49 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said: The FM containers must have been drafted in because of a shortage of insulated vans. More likely, I believe, to be for traffic to the Isle of Man, Isle of Wight, or Channel Islands. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted January 29 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 29 1 hour ago, Cwmtwrch said: It is; the narrow planks suggest it's a 1/241 or a first lot 1/242 If all of Lot 2346 to diagram 1/242 were narrow planked that would mean that the Parkside body only fits the 50 built in Lot 2598 built in 1954. It may be that Faverdale just used what was to hand as all of the diagrams in the BR book of the time show the wider planks. 1 hour ago, Cwmtwrch said: The short hinges make me think it's a converted ex-LNER D140. Good spot, I missed that hinge. D140 were only just pre-War IIRC, with a steel 10ft underframe so would be candidales for keeping when the conversions were done. 1 hour ago, Cwmtwrch said: More likely, I believe, to be for traffic to the Isle of Man, Isle of Wight, or Channel Islands. I think BR made one lot of insulated containers that weren't branded as Insulmeat, so could be those? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cwmtwrch Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 13 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said: If all of Lot 2346 to diagram 1/242 were narrow planked that would mean that the Parkside body only fits the 50 built in Lot 2598 built in 1954. I think that all 1/241 were probably narrow planked; they were built in 1951 and were photographically rather elusive, so I can't be sure. They also had LNER 8-shoe VB. The first lot of 1/242 is a bit of a mystery to me. The top two photographs in https://erickemp.smugmug.com/BR-8Ton-and-12T-Banana-Vans show vans from the first lot, one all narrow plank, one a mixture. Given the late date of the photos, my guess is that the mixed one is the result of repairs, rather than the way it was built, but I don't know, hence my uncertainty about the one in the Geest photo. The likely date makes me think 1/242, though. I agree with your comment about the Ratio kit. 13 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said: It may be that Faverdale just used what was to hand as all of the diagrams in the BR book of the time show the wider planks. I think that this is likely, and is why I think that 1/241 were probably all narrow plank. There was a shortage of decent timber during WW2, so they may still have been using up old stockpiled material. 13 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said: ... steel 10ft underframe so would be candidales for keeping when the conversions were done. Those converted were SR 1478 and 1479, LNER 140, and BR 1/242. All had 10ft wb steel underframe and were XP rated. So far as I know all surviving vehicles of these designs were converted, but no 9ft wb were, so this was definitely a factor. 14 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said: I think BR made one lot of insulated containers that weren't branded as Insulmeat, so could be those? No idea, I'm afraid. Just to add to the complexity I have seen a 1960s photo of a B or BD container with a banana importers label on it, but I'm not sure where now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted January 30 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 30 17 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said: I think BR made one lot of insulated containers that weren't branded as Insulmeat, so could be those? 3 hours ago, Cwmtwrch said: No idea, I'm afraid. Just to add to the complexity I have seen a 1960s photo of a B or BD container with a banana importers label on it, but I'm not sure where now. Found it, Diagram 3/375. 252 containers built at Eastleigh in 1948. They were insulated but the drawing doesn't show meat rails or aluminium facing to the sides and floor. The BR Diagram Book even shows an 'E' series drawing number for them. According to 'A Pictorial History of Southern Wagons' they were to SR Diagram 3029. The same book states that the SR used insulated containers for the transport of bananas, and a picture shows container BN217 being craned at Portsmouth Town Goods in 1932. It has straw hanging out of the doors which would tally with possible use for bananas. That particular lot of contaioners built to Diagram 3002 in 1931 is believed to be the first SR use of plywood for building containers in place of planking. Returning to the photo, those containers appear to be BR ones. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted February 1 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 1 (edited) Just to throw another grenade or two into the subject, I looked in the HMRS photo archive for some prototype info about a current project and came up with a picture showing an X9 Mica A No. W105815 still with Insulmeat branding and LNER Insulmeat Van No. E82652 both carrying the Jamaica Bananas labels. https://hmrs.org.uk/-aep804--8t-insul-meat-br-w105815---part-e82652-in-use-as-banana-vans-f3r.html On 30/01/2024 at 12:29, Cwmtwrch said: So far as I know all surviving vehicles of these designs were converted, but no 9ft wb were, I think the right hand one in this Colour Rail picture is a 1/241 with LNER Clasp Brakes and narrow planking. No XP branding but Yellow Spot. One I don't think I will be doing Edited February 2 by TheSignalEngineer Fat fingers 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cwmtwrch Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 17 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said: Just to throw another grenade or two into the subject, ... I think the right hand one in this Colour Rail picture is a 1/241 with LNER Clasp Brakes and narrow planking. No XP branding but Yellow Spot. Thanks for this, it's a photo I wasn't aware of, and, yes, it does appear to be a 1/241 with yellow spot ☹️. I'm trying to get a scan of it from ColourRail, but their website is being very uncooperative. I hate having to register on a site to buy anything. Hopefully I will eventually succeed and will be able to comment further idc. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cwmtwrch Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 I have now got a high-res scan, and the wagon is 1/241 B880309, built Faverdale 1951/2. The visible body is all narrow plank, except for the RH door and adjacent area, so I think that this is a repair to a van built with narrow planks. No date or location is given, but the 1/246 is B882536, which is from the final Lot [3290] of 400 completed by Wolverton* in 1960, which appears to have been in use for a while, so early 1960s seems reasonable... * According to Rowland, Darlington, i.e. Faverdale, according to Larkin. It has the top central corrugation in the end, so I think that Rowland is probably right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 (edited) Lot 3290 are plated as Wolverton. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brbanana/e25885743 Examination of the Lot file at the HMRS Study Centre would confirm the origin. Not beyond the wit of BR to build a frame at one works and a body at another. Very noticeable with the LMS style bodied Cattle with LNER frame which is in the lot files including a letter from Riddles confirming that they would be plated as built at Derby [despite usually it being the frame of rolling stock being accepted as the origin] Paul Edited February 7 by hmrspaul 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cwmtwrch Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 On 01/02/2024 at 23:25, TheSignalEngineer said: Just to throw another grenade or two into the subject, I've now found another at https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p783278790/h9567f169#h9567f169. LMS underframe, so LMS 2111 or BR 1/240, but cover plate rather than external steam pipe casing, which should mean it's been converted. Shame that the running number is not visible! So, two conversions in error or an indication that all BR ordered vans were converted [or all post-war vans]? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted February 10 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 10 (edited) Pity no-one seems to have taken a photo without a loco there. The one poking out to the right of 30824 is a 1/244 with BR clasp brakes and final strapping arrangement https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1019661472/ea35612e9 Looks as if studying the background of a few photos could be fruitful. 😆 Edited February 10 by TheSignalEngineer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cwmtwrch Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 10 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said: Pity no-one seems to have taken a photo without a loco there. It's possible someone did. I've found five shots in the Rail-Online set at Salisbury, including the one in your link, one of which includes B880763. Colour-Rail 25095 is accompaned by a second shot, 25096, probably taken at the same time, I think, which also includes B880763. There doesn't seem to be quite enough evidence to definitely link all these different shots to the same train, nor to link partials in one shot to complete views in another, but it's an interesting collection. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted February 10 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 10 7 hours ago, Cwmtwrch said: There doesn't seem to be quite enough evidence to definitely link all these different shots to the same train, nor to link partials in one shot to complete views in another, but it's an interesting collection. I did wonder if Salisbury could have been used as a holding point for empties from thr south of England. A convenient place for sending extra wagons to Southampton or Avonmouth depending on what was docking. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted February 10 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 10 On 09/02/2024 at 15:14, Cwmtwrch said: So, two conversions in error or an indication that all BR ordered vans were converted [or all post-war vans]? The one at the Bluebell is interesting. An LMS van complete with LMS plate but no casing or steam pipe in a photo there (on Flickr IIRC) dated 1970. Unfortunately in that photo it has been painted all over in a light colour. I wonder if it had a yellow spot under that coat? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cwmtwrch Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 1 hour ago, TheSignalEngineer said: I did wonder if Salisbury could have been used as a holding point for empties from thr south of England. A convenient place for sending extra wagons to Southampton or Avonmouth depending on what was docking. I believe that the general storage of banana empties for Southampton was at Eastleigh, but temporary storage at Salisbury if Eastleigh was full is a possibility. Another is that these vans are an arrival off the WR via Westbury and just parked, waiting for the SR loco to take them onwards. 1 hour ago, TheSignalEngineer said: The one at the Bluebell is interesting. An LMS van complete with LMS plate but no casing or steam pipe in a photo there (on Flickr IIRC) dated 1970. Unfortunately in that photo it has been painted all over in a light colour. I wonder if it had a yellow spot under that coat? https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/570027.html The liveries are not to be taken seriously. The article is interesting, some info I have never seen elsewhere, but consistent with other info, and some which is at best half-truths, despite the credit to "Fyffes and the Banana" (which I have a copy of). The page states the van was withdrawn in 1965, and a photo caption states that the Bluebell rebuilt it, so it doesn't help much. A photo when it was delivered to the Bluebell would hopefully be more informative😀. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted February 11 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 11 3 hours ago, Cwmtwrch said: a photo caption states that the Bluebell rebuilt it, so it doesn't help much. Judging by a photo dated 2010 the ironwork is probobly the only bit of the original left. Most of the timber looked rotten. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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