BR Banana Vans in 4mm

[Tim Hale]

Is there an accurate kit available for the Southern region's banana traffic? I recall that someone suggested that the Ratio kit was not to be recommended but my knowledge of 50's wagons is somewhat limited. Were there more than one type of wagon used?

 

Does Paul Barlett's excellent site cover these wagons?

 

Thanks for the responses.

 

DesA

[industrial]

ABS dose a SR built one and these will still be running in the 50ies.

[Fat Controller]

If you're talking about the late '50s, then the Wrenn (former Hornby-Dublo SD) one could be used, fitted on a Red Panda underframe (available from Parkside).

I can't recollect anyone mentioning anything about the Ratio one; it goes together reasonably well, though I've not yet got around to lettering mine. Individual numbers are just too small for my eyes these days.

I've got one of the ABS kits, though it's as yet unassembled- it's of the sort with a single arc roof, rather than the three-centre arc as used on other SR vans. Am I correct in thinking there was a version of the SR van with this roof?

Most photos I've seen of rakes of Banana vans seem to have a mixture of SR/LMS/BR types in them- my understanding is that scratch rakes would be assembled at short notice to work from whichever port was being used at an given time.

[Adam]

I've got one of the ABS kits, though it's as yet unassembled- it's of the sort with a single arc roof, rather than the three-centre arc as used on other SR vans. Am I correct in thinking there was a version of the SR van with this roof?

 

There were two different varieties of SR Banana van. The sort that ABS do in 4mm (one of which ended up as part of the miner's train at Graig Merthyr Colliery of all places):

 

http://railwaysofwales.fotopic.net/p58787084.html

 

One in BR service here:

 

http://southernrailway.net/search/display_pic.php?search_fd0=33721

 

The more conventional SR roof was found on the later vans (I think). Parkside do a 7mm kit (as, I think does ABS...), but not in 4mm. It is 'bashable' from the Ratio even plank van however or even from the Bachmann version, but a whole new chassis would probably be easier than changing the brakegear already supplied:

 

http://southernrailway.net/search/display_pic.php?search_fd0=33720

 

Note that at least some of the LMS ones had a 9' wheelbase - the Ratio kit has a 10' wheelbase chassis. The differences are discussed by Geoff Kent in the second volume of his 4mm Wagon Trilogy from Wild Swan:

 

http://southernrailway.net/search/display_pic.php?search_fd0=33458

 

As Brian (FC) says, in the BR period, vans of a mixture of origins would be usual judging by contemporary photos.

 

Adam

[Fat Controller]

Adam,

Would the one with the 'Maunsell' roof have the SR 'Patent Clasp' brake-gear? If so, the brake-gear's available from ABS. This is the one which is similar to the type fitted to the Presflo, I believe.

[Adam]

Yes, that's right. The type where the vacuum cylinder has that peculiar link attached to parallel cross-shafts rather that relying on a separate lever. As you say, it's available from ABS. The Banana Van is one of those conversions on the 'one fine day' list. I have some of the bits, I'm waiting on the inclination.

 

I'm not so sure it's similar to the Presflo however - the brakeshoes on that are rather similar to NER hopper brakegear and the rest is predicated by the vacuum cylinders having to keep out of the way of the hopper.

 

BTW: For the OP: If you go to Paul Bartlett's site and type 'Banana' into the search box, you will be rewarded with pictures.

 

Adam

[hmrspaul]

On 06/03/2011 at 11:55, Fat Controller said:

Adam,

Would the one with the 'Maunsell' roof have the SR 'Patent Clasp' brake-gear? If so, the brake-gear's available from ABS. This is the one which is similar to the type fitted to the Presflo, I believe.

Not sure I understand the reference to Presflo, but here https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/srvan/e80cd3bd  is a very late survivor. The TADPOLES were used as fitted heads on mineral trains in the Welsh Valleys in the 1960s. Why SR banana vans were singled out for this I have no idea - although they are clasp brakes so do exert a decent brake force.

 

There are detail photographs of this brake rigging in the same collection for example https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/srvan/e3375e15d although this is a shorter wheelbase example of only 9ft.

 

I hadn't realised that Parkside had not done these in 4mm and only in 7mm. There is a dearth of decent banana van models, and there was quite a lot of variety. And a useful traffic as there seem to have been many receiving warehouses situated in general goods yards - I (think) I remember one at Kingston - on - Thames.

 

Paul Bartlett

Edited January 8, 2022 by hmrspaul
Because of criticism the photo references are updated

[Fat Controller]

Not sure I understand the reference to Presflo, but here http://gallery6801.fotopic.net/p26993621.html is a very late survivor. The TADPOLES were used as fitted heads on mineral trains in the Welsh Valleys in the 1960s. Why SR banana vans were singled out for this I have no idea - although they are clasp brakes so do exert a decent brake force.

 

There are detail photographs of this brake rigging in the same collection for example http://gallery6801.fotopic.net/p63670956.html although this is a shorter wheelbase example of only 9ft.

 

I hadn't realised that Parkside had not done these in 4mm and only in 7mm. There is a dearth of decent banana van models, and there was quite a lot of variety. And a useful traffic as there seem to have been many receiving warehouses situated in general goods yards - I (think) I remember one at Kingston - on - Thames.

 

Paul Bartlett

I was thinking of the arrangement of twin V-hangers on each side.

The sudden, and somewhat belated, arrival of the Banana vans for fitted heads (around 1973, IIRC) might have been related to them being surplus to requirements at Barry. Quite why we'd had to wait this long for fitted heads, when 68ers had been overpowered by their trains for 8 or so years, I don't know. The vans seemed to be concentrated around a couple of locations- llantrisant being one, Llandeilo Jct another. Curiously, I can't think that I ever saw them on the L&MMR, which was across the cricket pitch from our house.

The ripening warehouses were in some strange places- Kingston and Exeter Central I can understand, but Warminster also had one, as did Barnstaple, I believe. Were there any dedicated facilities for this traffic away from the former Southern lines?

[hmrspaul]

I was thinking of the arrangement of twin V-hangers on each side.

The sudden, and somewhat belated, arrival of the Banana vans for fitted heads (around 1973, IIRC) might have been related to them being surplus to requirements at Barry. Quite why we'd had to wait this long for fitted heads, when 68ers had been overpowered by their trains for 8 or so years, I don't know. The vans seemed to be concentrated around a couple of locations- llantrisant being one, Llandeilo Jct another. Curiously, I can't think that I ever saw them on the L&MMR, which was across the cricket pitch from our house.

Brian

 

I had not realised this use continued until the mid 1970s - my TADPOLE is from 1970 and was condemned at the time.

 

Paul Bartlett

[Fat Controller]

They were definitely around after I went away to college in 1973, as I remember seeing them at Llantrisant. The ones at Llandeilo Junction may have gone over to the S&T by then, as this was about the time of the extension of the Port Talbot MAS to Burry Port. There seemed to have been a few of the SR vans that went on to work as 'Pitman's Pullmans' around the South Wales area as well- Graig Merthyr had some, I believe.

[chrisf]

The ripening warehouses were in some strange places- Kingston and Exeter Central I can understand, but Warminster also had one, as did Barnstaple, I believe. Were there any dedicated facilities for this traffic away from the former Southern lines?

 

Yes. One was established in 1960 at Heathfield on the former Moretonhampstead branch.

 

Chris

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

I can remember in the 60's that there was a weekly ship ( all painted white ) that delivered bananas to Portishead. The ship was refrigerated and directly the fruit was off loaded it would start to ripen. The secret was to get it to the shop just as it went yellow and it had a shelf life of less than a week in that state before it started to go off.

 

A bit like fish really. This was the reason that British Rail thrived at all in that it was the fastest method to deliver perishable goods and everything was geared to the delivery by the train. Goods were unloaded and distributed almost instantly where needed but the wastage caused by late delivery was high.

 

Like all fruit bananas were seasonal so you ate a lot when they were about and went without when they weren't. Jaw dropping now but very normal then.

[DonB]

There was a thread on Banana vans in the old RMweb with IIRC some photos of models, but not specific to SR types.

['CHARD]

I can remember in the 60's that there was a weekly ship ( all painted white ) that delivered bananas to Portishead. The ship was refrigerated and directly the fruit was off loaded it would start to ripen. The secret was to get it to the shop just as it went yellow and it had a shelf life of less than a week in that state before it started to go off.

There's a B&W photo in one of the standard pictorial works on the Diesel Hydraulics that shows a Warship about to sally forth from Portishead on precisely one of these block workings

[br2975]

They were definitely around after I went away to college in 1973, as I remember seeing them at Llantrisant. The ones at Llandeilo Junction may have gone over to the S&T by then, as this was about the time of the extension of the Port Talbot MAS to Burry Port. There seemed to have been a few of the SR vans that went on to work as 'Pitman's Pullmans' around the South Wales area as well- Graig Merthyr had some, I believe.

 

The 1971/72 WTT shows two local Llantrisant trips "O96" and "O98" allowed three daily return trips to the 'Dowlais Works' Cardiff - most likely conveing limestone from Creigiau Quarry and iron ore from Llanharry .

 

The vans based at Llantrisant would be added to provide a 'fitted head' for thses trains, which reversed at Pengam running unfitted for the last mile or so to the Dowlais (East Moors) Works.

 

Brian R

[Barry O]

The Banana Shed on Herculaneum ( or what was left of it after a visit by the Lufwaffe) has Banana vans from Ratio as well as Mike's Hornby Dublo ones.

 

The Ratio ones were built as a batch and the worst bit is keeping the door locking bars attached to the model.

[Chuffed 1]

On 07/03/2011 at 13:23, Lady_Ava_Hay said:

I can remember in the 60's that there was a weekly ship ( all painted white ) that delivered bananas to Portishead. The ship was refrigerated and directly the fruit was off loaded it would start to ripen. The secret was to get it to the shop just as it went yellow and it had a shelf life of less than a week in that state before it started to go off.

 

A bit like fish really. This was the reason that British Rail thrived at all in that it was the fastest method to deliver perishable goods and everything was geared to the delivery by the train. Goods were unloaded and distributed almost instantly where needed but the wastage caused by late delivery was high.

 

Not entirely the case, actually.  The fruit was generally imported green and was sent to specialist ripening rooms before being sent to the wholesale markets.

Steam heating and speed (in ‘summer’ when southern steam heating hoses were usually removed for refurbishment) were both critical in ensuring that the fruit environment didn’t fall below 7 degrees centigrade when blackening would occur. The ships would not be refrigerated for just this reason.

The fruit would be released when pale yellow for sale and distribution. It was then up to the greengrocer to sell them before they over-ripened!

 

Unfortunately banana rooms and knowledge of banana handling have gone the way of the big wholesale markets, which is why over ripe bananas and pre-blackened green fruits now proliferate.

[Steamport Southport]

 

 

You do realise that post is over ten years old.....

[Chuffed 1]

Yes.  But those interested in the subject will still read it!

[Trofimow]

Old threads never die...

 

Here are a few SR banana vans for my own layout - not the best quality pics I'm afraid.

 

 

These were my first attempt at 3D printed wagons, drawn in sketchup.

 

 

 

 

Amd these were based on the Parkside PC594, with the 3D printed chassis and doors from the previous effort.

 

 

 

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

19 hours ago, Chuffed 1 said:

Yes.  But those interested in the subject will still read it!

 

And not the twenty or so threads on banana vans and workings that are current?

 

Even the links above are for a website that hasn't been in existence since Adam was a lad. Fotopic went bust over ten years ago!

[hmrspaul]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

And not the twenty or so threads on banana vans and workings that are current?

 

Even the links above are for a website that hasn't been in existence since Adam was a lad. Fotopic went bust over ten years ago!

Updated

[Steamport Southport]

5 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

Updated

 

It wasn't a criticism of you.

 

 

 

More the total bewildering idea of reopening a thread that had been dead for eight years and must have been about page 600 of this sub forum. Not really saying anything new. Then replying again more than three months later to rebump it!

 

Do people really look at the oldest threads on the forum just to reopen them for fun?

 

It's bad forum etiquette to bump dead threads. It's been happening a lot recently with people replying to ten year old posts by people who in some cases are no longer with us.

 

 

Do people really think people want their posts from ten years ago being replied to? The poster in question hasn't been on the forum for a long time.

 

Lady Ava Hay last visited Nov 15 2018.

 

 

 

 

In other words look at the dates and have some common sense if the post is old. The poster may be busy, no longer interested, ill or deceased.

 

 

Jason

[Chuffed 1]

Don’t be a knob, Jason.

plenty of people look at old threads all the time. Apparently they Google Rmweb and whatever subject they’re interested in!

 

[MarkC]

On 10/09/2021 at 13:43, Chuffed 1 said:

Not entirely the case, actually.  The fruit was generally imported green and was sent to specialist ripening rooms before being sent to the wholesale markets.

Steam heating and speed (in ‘summer’ when southern steam heating hoses were usually removed for refurbishment) were both critical in ensuring that the fruit environment didn’t fall below 7 degrees centigrade when blackening would occur. The ships would not be refrigerated for just this reason.

The fruit would be released when pale yellow for sale and distribution. It was then up to the greengrocer to sell them before they over-ripened!

 

Unfortunately banana rooms and knowledge of banana handling have gone the way of the big wholesale markets, which is why over ripe bananas and pre-blackened green fruits now proliferate.

Old thread, I know, but a note on banana carriage - and the ships arriving in South Wales were probably Geest Line - most reefer ships were/are painted white simply to help with controlling temperature on board; white reflects sunlight, & thus reduces heat absorbed into the ship, which means that it costs less to keep the cargo cool.

 

Almost all reefer ships use circulating air as an intermediate medium for cooling the holds & cargo. On leaving the load ports, air would be blown into the holds at a temperature of 11.1 Deg.C. The outlet temperature - the air returning to the cooler units - would be monitored until it reached 12.2 Deg.C, at which point the delivery temperature was raised to 13.3 Deg.C and maintained at that until the hold was opened at the discharge port. This procedure kept the fruit unripened - and circulating the air also helped to remove the ethylene gas being given off by the fruit. (you need both some warmth and the presence of ethylene for the fruit to ripen). Once the cargo was off the ship, my interest in it was over.

 

Acceptable loss due to some of the cargo ripening was usually a maximum of 5% by weight.

 

Oh, the poor old Frosty (the Refrigeration Engineer) was also kept very busy for the first few days after sailing from the loading port - the amount of water which came out of the cargo was amazing, so he was kept occupied pumping out the hold bilge wells, where the water had accumulated.

 

Mark

(One time reefer ship Frosty - and believe me, you never forget those banana carriage temperatures & procedures...)