Coaches for Cardiff Valleys excursions in 1960s

[Penrhos1920]

Sorry if you get this a couple of times, but I’m posting in several places in an attempt to widen the net. I’m trying to identify the (typical) coach diagrams used for Cardiff Valleys excursions to Paddington (and return) in the early 1960s. There is a photograph in Rickard’s Record Vol.1 plate 84. This shows the ECS being hauled to its start point. The caption mentions that there are other photos of similar trains possibly en route between Pontypridd, Caerphilly, Machen and Newport. (Those of you who know me will realise my interest as these trains passed through Penrhos Junctions.)

 

I’m assuming that there would have been no 1^st class accommodation on the trains? From the published photograph I think the coaches were a mixture of Collett corridor thirds and a toplight or two. Could the sixth coach be a Hawksworth? Is there only brake third, ninth coach?

 

 

 

Many thanks

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

As far as I can work out from a mass of alterations over the years Toplight stock 9ft 5.5ins etc wide was not permitted on either the Taff Vale or PC&N so that in theory rules out a Toplight (n.b. in theory)

[chrisf]

I have the book in question and a magnifying glass. Even with the latter it is not easy to determine what types of vehicle are in the set beyond the first few. However, the first one looks like a Collett C67 SK and the second rather like a Collett E159 BCK - I say this because of the very small guard's brake. The third looks to be of LMS parentage with Stones vents above the windows. Coach 4 looks to be an early Collett C54 SK, coach 5 a Collett C77 SK and coach 6 another C67. Beyond that I cannot be sure except that the last but one vehicle looks to be a brake marshalled the wrong way round.

 

A rummage has produced a supplement to the public timetable for Easter 1959. It shows an additional train on Easter Monday, 30th March, leaving Treherbert for Paddington at 2.18 pm calling at all atations to Pontypridd dep 3.0 pm, then Caerphilly at 3.25 pm and arrive Paddington 6.37 pm. In addition a train ran in the path of the 2.0 pm Aberdare LL - Abercynon but extended to Paddington - Pontypridd 2.40 pm, Caerphilly 2.58 pm and due Paddington at - er - 6.37 pm! Passengers from the Merthyr and Rhymney lines were directed to service trains changing at Abercynon and Caerphilly respectively. This suggests that on that occasion the two reliefs were combined at Bassaleg Junction where the 56xxs were replaced by main line power, so must each have consisted of less than the 10 coaches shown in the photo!

 

Perhaps surprisingly, the timetable supplements for Whitsun 1960 and August Bank Holiday 1962 make no reference to comparable workings.

 

Some years ago I came across a postcard of a down train at Llwynypia consisting of corridor stock and hauled by two 56xx. This was clearly taken on a Bank Holiday Monday. Sadly, as with some other pics I have, it is in too safe a place for me to find it but I expect it will turn up one day.

 

As I expect you know, the Sid Rickard photo collection is in the care of D K Jones of Caegarw, Mountain Ash, aka Cresselley Photos. The list runs to over 140 pages but is worth a browse.

 

Chris

[Penrhos1920]

As far as I can work out from a mass of alterations over the years Toplight stock 9ft 5.5ins etc wide was not permitted on either the Taff Vale or PC&N so that in theory rules out a Toplight (n.b. in theory)

Mike, I thought most Toplight stock was about 9' wide like most GWR stock? Some of the Valleys suburban stock was 9'3" wide with recessed door handles. Would it be 70' stock that was not permitted on the Taff Vale and PC&N?

 

 

I have the book in question and a magnifying glass. Even with the latter it is not easy to determine what types of vehicle are in the set beyond the first few. However, the first one looks like a Collett C67 SK and the second rather like a Collett E159 BCK - I say this because of the very small guard's brake. The third looks to be of LMS parentage with Stones vents above the windows. Coach 4 looks to be an early Collett C54 SK, coach 5 a Collett C77 SK and coach 6 another C67. Beyond that I cannot be sure except that the last but one vehicle looks to be a brake marshalled the wrong way round.

 

Thanks, that's a few coaches I could build. How did an ex-LMS coach get into a rake of ex-GWR coaches? I think you're right though as it only has a door at each end which is very un-GWR like.

 

 

Some years ago I came across a postcard of a down train at Llwynypia consisting of corridor stock and hauled by two 56xx. This was clearly taken on a Bank Holiday Monday. Sadly, as with some other pics I have, it is in too safe a place for me to find it but I expect it will turn up one day.

 

As I expect you know, the Sid Rickard photo collection is in the care of D K Jones of Caegarw, Mountain Ash, aka Cresselley Photos. The list runs to over 140 pages but is worth a browse.

 

Chris

 

It would be good to see it if you find the Llwynpia photo. It's not a Rickard photo. but there is a another Cardiff Valleys excursion in the collection so I'll be getting a copy of that.

 

When did the excursion return from London? It seems odd to go away after Easter.

[Kris]

 

Thanks, that's a few coaches I could build. How did an ex-LMS coach get into a rake of ex-GWR coaches? I think you're right though as it only has a door at each end which is very un-GWR like.

 

 

 

ex LMS coaches turned up in GWR rakes from time to time. In this case it might have been a way of returning a coach to London and hence onwards to the Midland region. The other option is that the the coach was spare and was needed.

 

 

[chrisf]

When did the excursion return from London? It seems odd to go away after Easter.

 

I wonder whether it was in fact an excursion. It may have been classed as a relief, given that its details were in a supplement to the public timetable. On the same day there was a 2.5 pm Blaina to Paddington and lots of main line extras. The supplement does not show matching workings in the opposite direction. On summer Saturdays in the late 50s/early 60s there were through trains from Blaina, Abertillery and Ebbw Vale (one each) to Paddington, also without return workings.

 

As for LMS coaches in WR trains, the phenomenon was hardly rare. Another of Sid Rickard's photos shows an LMS lavatory brake second, as modelled by Airfix all those years ago, in the formation of the 2.0 pm Merthyr - Barry Island in February 1958. Some WR coaches got around too - in the classic BTF film "This Is York" there is a GW coach in the formation of the North Briton!

 

Chris

[The Stationmaster]

Mike, I thought most Toplight stock was about 9' wide like most GWR stock? Some of the Valleys suburban stock was 9'3" wide with recessed door handles. Would it be 70' stock that was not permitted on the Taff Vale and PC&N?

 

 

This is where things are not entirely clear. Drawings in Russell's book shows them as 9ft 5.25ins over handles (=9ft over body I would presume) and most of the restrictions refer to overall width - including the one I referred to (there are different restrictions quoted for various widths above 8ft 11ins and with different lengths of course). Plus there are amendments pasted over amendments which make it difficult to follow in some places. The key decider I suspect would be what was actually painted on the vehicle - following a collision between a coach (of Toplight dimensions as it happens) and a tablet apparatus an Instruction was issued on 24 May 1952 that henceforth all Western Region stock was to have painted on the solebars the length over buffers, width over body, and width over projections as vehicles passed through shops. Obviously in that collision the extra 5inches or so of vehicle width had been the troublesome feature.

[Il Grifone]

Excursions and reliefs tended to made up from whatever stock was spare at the time. Ex LMS stock was perfectly acceptable (it all belonged to us at the time!), especially as the gangways were compatible with ex GWR stock - none of this buckeye coupling/Pullman gangway nonsense.