Guest jim s-w Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Thats fair enough Martin but with the absence of any announcement regarding a new class 90 on its own what were people expecting? Yes the price is more inline with Hornby's HST and to some extent you might think you might be getting a product of a similar standard (perhaps that 'might' should be "will") but at the same time A new 90 would be bigger news surely? Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Thats fair enough Martin but with the absence of any announcement regarding a new class 90 on its own what were people expecting? Yes the price is more inline with Hornby's HST and to some extent you might think you might be getting a product of a similar standard (perhaps that 'might' should be "will") but at the same time A new 90 would be bigger news surely? Cheers Jim I agree Jim. I think the issue here is not necessarily the detail but what is considered a high price for a model with little in the way of new tooling or improved performance. That being said, it seems obvious to me what the solution is. Vote with your feet and don't buy the pack if you don't like the contents. Of course, it does not help that Hornby have a "one size fits all" description for D&E subjects on their new website. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Jim, I absolutely agree with you in principle. But the DVT pack with the class 90 in this case, isn't in the Railroad range, nor is it advertised as such. But the only changes Hornby committed to on this model was a change in power bogie and making it DCC ready - everything else has been punters hopes rather than genuine expectations so in the main I think Jim's point stands. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 But the only changes Hornby committed to on this model was a change in power bogie and making it DCC ready - everything else has been punters hopes rather than genuine expectations so in the main I think Jim's point stands. I didn't say it didn't. Simply that it was not advertised as a Railroad model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
valeofyork Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 I agree Jim. I think the issue here is not necessarily the detail but what is considered a high price for a model with little in the way of new tooling or improved performance. That being said, it seems obvious to me what the solution is. Vote with your feet and don't buy the pack if you don't like the contents. Of course, it does not help that Hornby have a "one size fits all" description for D&E subjects on their new website. It's a little frustrating that Hornby have chosen to sell the DVT with a loco. I only wanted the DVT (I already have a Scotrail Class 90, which have been on the Pretendolino plenty of time). If it was an improved 90 in the pack that would be different, but it obviously isn't - it's quite a lot to pay when I only want the DVT. I guess Hornby are hoping to make more money by selling the DVT with the loco. However, I wonder how many people there are like me who would have bought the DVT on its own for around 40 quid, but don't want to spend over a hundred to get it with a poor loco that isn't wanted anyway. Hornby might well have shot themselves in the foot with this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kskato Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 This thread (as unfortunately to often) is the result of UK MT Manf's extreme lack of product information. I cant figure out why this is so... I'm looking at the advertising page of this subject on H's web site as I read this 'discussion'.. Five lines written on the prototype, three lines worth (maybe) on two products,, I went to KatoUSA web site and random picked an engine.. 10 lines on the prototype. 8 lines describing the model. not counting the lines with all the liveries its available in. I went to Atlas web site. 5 lines on the prototype. 10 lines on the model. not counting the lines with all the liveries its available in. I went to Marklin web site. 8 lines on the prototype. 6 lines on the model. 'Plus' the line with 'symbol icons' and the wealth of information they provide. Maybe Adopt the 'symbol icons' the Germans use, it could help. Not a perfect system, but better than a cut-N-paste 'one description fits all' "Hire some out of work Madison Avenue Ad-man,,, gotta be plenty of them... They realllly need a salesmen* to promote the product" *[and I mean salesman in the good way] Hype may be hype , but its also 'Information' !!! "You paid for the updating of the 'Limby' power unit _ tell people about !!!" "Repeat the virtues of your new DVT ! [And Hey, that would also separate the features of the two units] Thank you for your time.. my ignorable opinion/rant is over... now back to my trains.... Howard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan452 Posted July 18, 2011 Author Share Posted July 18, 2011 While I agree about it being a little pricey, now you have it, it would make an excellent basis for a project - http://www.rmweb.co....rcity-class-90/ The shape is spot and I've always thought it captures the look of a ninety rather well. Interesting article (yes I also have a copy of ‘Model Rail’ May 2000). Unfortunately this is well beyond any modelling capabilities I either currently have or are likely to acquire. However it does illustrate what even a partially re-tooled Class 90 could look like. Vote with your feet and don't buy the pack if you don't like the contents. In retrospect yes but as I previously mentioned this was on my ‘wish list’ since it’s announcement. But the only changes Hornby committed to on this model was a change in power bogie and making it DCC ready - everything else has been punters hopes rather than genuine expectations so in the main I think Jim's point stands. Maybe or maybe not? Although having produced a new pantograph for the ex Lima Class 87 was it reasonable to have expected Hornby to have done the same with the Class 90? As I also previously mentioned the missing cab interior smacks more of a quality control issue. (NAN having kindly mentioned that the new motor DOES fit the cab interior supplied on the previous releases.) It's a little frustrating that Hornby have chosen to sell the DVT with a loco. I only wanted the DVT (I already have a Scotrail Class 90, which have been on the Pretendolino plenty of time). If it was an improved 90 in the pack that would be different, but it obviously isn't - it's quite a lot to pay when I only want the DVT. I guess Hornby are hoping to make more money by selling the DVT with the loco. However, I wonder how many people there are like me who would have bought the DVT on its own for around 40 quid, but don't want to spend over a hundred to get it with a poor loco that isn't wanted anyway. Hornby might well have shot themselves in the foot with this. Do Hornby actually consider the feedback they receive? LIke the previously posted letter I sent them, the answer to which looked as if they are now employing an outside agency to deal with correspondance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Hi Jonathan Traditionally Hornby don't seem to cross items from one model to another. Let me give you an example or 2 The class 121 dmu. Weakest part? The bogies are very out of proportion. The best dmu bogie is already in Hornby's range under the class 110. So as they retooled the chassis anyway why not fit the better bogies? Class 87 again the bogies are undersized and again the right sized bogies are already in the range under the 90. Again another opportunity lost to improve the model for no extra effort. We have gone from Hornby of old where they used the sake bogies under completely different classes of loco to the current day where they produce more than one design of the same thing, one being good and one being awful! Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D605Eagle Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Hi All Am I the only one consistantly bemused by this? EVERY time Hornby release anything from the railroad range we get people moaning that the power bogie is different but nothing else is changed. IT NEVER HAS! When are people going to learn that the railroad range is NOT going to have any improvements over what came before? Why would Hornby go to the expense of ammending a tool for its budget range when it seems people are happy to buy it regardless at an over inflated cost when you can get the old version at sometimes half the price? Can people please understand the obvious fact that Hornby is all or nothing! The railroad range is what we had with a new power bogie and (probably) a better paint job while the rest of the range is their high end stuff, There is no halfway house. The fact that another company does small changes to its range has nothing to do with it. I constantly think peoples expectations of the railraod range is completely unrealistic although I do agree with the OP here in that its way over priced for what it is. Cheers Jim I'm totally lost as to why this post has had 6+? Appart from bearing absolutely no reference to the subject in hand due to it NOT been sold as railroad, it has quite clearly been stated that the model not only doesn't live up to the description that Hornby give it on their website, but is actually a step backwards body wise from the same model from 12 years ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I'm totally lost as to why this post has had 6+? Appart from bearing absolutely no reference to the subject in hand due to it NOT been sold as railroad, it has quite clearly been stated that the model not only doesn't live up to the description that Hornby give it on their website, but is actually a step backwards body wise from the same model from 12 years ago. The only thing Jim got wrong was describing it as a Railroad item (but it follows the pattern Hornby adopted for rereleasing former Lima locos (some of which are in the Railroad range)) but he was spot on with his observations otherwise. People seem to be conflating various sources to build an overhyped expectation of product. As has been repeatedly pointed out, the Hornby website is shockingly wrong on product descrptions with cut'n'past-itis rife (Hornby really should correct this before it actually gets them in trouble with goods sold from their website not being as described - I'm not sure I've ever heard of anyone actually ordering from the website though so they will continue to dodge this particular bullet). Yet this is taken as a more credible source than the press release from Hornby when they announced the pack that they were going to put in a new motor bogie and make it DCC ready. People have also been decrying the "massive" price rises in the Hornby range, but yet cling to the hope that because the price was so high for the item, it must have been completely retooled, made of gold or whatever. The only thing that is clear is that despite the improvements made to the 90 in this pack, it is poor value for money based on the contents alone. If you must have the DVT in this livery, it's the only game in town short of getting a respray done etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Hi eagle When you say it doesn't live up to the description what do you mean? Looking at the list on the website there is NOTHING not true and NOTHING that says it applies to the loco. Doesn't the lack of any discussion on a new 90 give the game away that yes while Hornby haven't stuck a railroad lable on it that's exactly what we were always going to get? The expectation that the loco would be improved rightly or wrongly is just that, an expectation. Historically they have done a dvt pack before with the 67 which also had no improvement over the original. Why and where have Hornby said this would be any different? Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan452 Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 Historically they have done a dvt pack before with the 67 which also had no improvement over the original. Why and where have Hornby said this would be any different? Cheers Jim That is a fair point. Although despite the shortcomings of the current 'Limby' Class 67 (discussed at length on other threads) it is still miles ahead of the Class 90. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 It is indeed Jonathan but that's entirely down to the original Lima model not the Hornby version. Either was I still agree with you that the price is OTT Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D605Eagle Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Hi eagle When you say it doesn't live up to the description what do you mean? Looking at the list on the website there is NOTHING not true and NOTHING that says it applies to the loco. Doesn't the lack of any discussion on a new 90 give the game away that yes while Hornby haven't stuck a railroad lable on it that's exactly what we were always going to get? The expectation that the loco would be improved rightly or wrongly is just that, an expectation. Historically they have done a dvt pack before with the 67 which also had no improvement over the original. Why and where have Hornby said this would be any different? Cheers Jim Firstly I do agree with what you posted, just that its on a tangent to the thread. I was only posting my supprise at the number of +s it had received when it was about the railroad range, not the subject in hand. As for the description, gleaned from the Hornby website, these are various points it makes about the pack. Special Features Sprung Buffers Extensive Detail All-wheel pickups Non-working Pantograph Of those 4 items, only 1 is true. However I feel I'm missing the point somewhat so I'll shut up now Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Hi eagle No where does it say that the list applies to both vehicles so you can say it's all true. Weather or not it's reasonable to expect that it does or if it's underhanded is up to the individual to decide. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Hi eagle No where does it say that the list applies to both vehicles so you can say it's all true. Weather or not it's reasonable to expect that it does or if it's underhanded is up to the individual to decide. Cheers Jim Given it's been done to most of the D&E models in their various ranges, I suspect it's laziness on the website developer's part, rather than underhandedness. That does not excuse it effectively being false advertising, however. Model railway enthusiasts such as ourselves will know all about the model in question and its shortcomings beforehand, without reading the (incorrect) description, and will have probably scoured the internet beforehand to find out more about from like minded people. Will a less eagle eyed consumer, looking for a train pack or train set, be the same? It is a reasonable expectation of any consumer to acquire goods which match their product description. That the description only covers part of the train pack in this case, and the description doesn't make it clear which part of the product matches the stats given, is a fault on Hornby's part which needs to be corrected. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan452 Posted August 16, 2011 Author Share Posted August 16, 2011 A fully re-tooled 90 just for you? What? If the Hornby Website is to be believed then the forthcoming R3077 Freightliner Class 90 http://www.Hornby.com/shop/locomotives/dcc-ready-locomotives/r3077-freightliner-class-90/ should answer many of my dreams. Again it quotes-: Special Features Sprung Buffers Extensive Detail All-wheel pickups Directional lighting Working head/tail lights Non-working Pantograph In this particular case the locomotive is being sold separately, hence there is no excuse of an ambiguity between the advertised features of the locomotive and accompanying DVT. If however this is another 'copy and paste' effort on the Hornby Website and the forthcoming model does NOT feature the above refinements then is it definitely a case of infringing the Trades Description Act? (The locomotive being on my wish list.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Not to be a killjoy, but it does look virtually the same to mine from the 1990's in a different livery. However, the proof of the pudding as they say, is in the eating. After the pretendolino though my hopes aren't high... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
59205 Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 If the Hornby Website is to be believed then the forthcoming R3077 Freightliner Class 90 http://www.Hornby.co...liner-class-90/ should answer many of my dreams. Again it quotes-: Special Features Sprung Buffers Extensive Detail All-wheel pickups Directional lighting Working head/tail lights Non-working Pantograph In this particular case the locomotive is being sold separately, hence there is no excuse of an ambiguity between the advertised features of the locomotive and accompanying DVT. If however this is another 'copy and paste' effort on the Hornby Website and the forthcoming model does NOT feature the above refinements then is it definitely a case of infringing the Trades Description Act? (The locomotive being on my wish list.) This just looks like a mistake on Hornby's website to me. If that Class 90 comes out with that specification i'll get my a*se out in John Lewis's window! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike tugsandsheds Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 This just looks like a mistake on Hornby's website to me. If that Class 90 comes out with that specification i'll get my a*se out in John Lewis's window! And I'll join you, although I'd have to buy one ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 If however this is another 'copy and paste' effort on the Hornby Website and the forthcoming model does NOT feature the above refinements then is it definitely a case of infringing the Trades Description Act? Only if you purchase said loco from the Hornby Sales site (where this information is posted) - information there does not pertain to any other point of sale. Hornby's online catalogue is a point of sale rather than a point of product information for the general case. It doesn't stop it being wrong, and Hornby should be really careful about this as one day someone with their eye on principle rather than price might actually haul them over the coals for this. Though given the constant moaning about Hornby RRPs being way over the top, I doubt anyone here would ever be a customer of the Hornby sales site. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fay Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 It's got to be a mistake on hormbys behalf, So I thought I would email them to ask anyway if enough of us do it they might consider given us the class 90 we all deserve. You can contact them with suggestions directly from there web site. I've got there new DVT in intercity livery just need to change the buffers, grill, add buckeye skirt and Pullman rubbing plate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 21, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 21, 2011 If the Hornby Website is to be believed then the forthcoming R3077 Freightliner Class 90 http://www.Hornby.co...liner-class-90/ should answer many of my dreams. Again it quotes-: Special Features Sprung Buffers Extensive Detail All-wheel pickups Directional lighting Working head/tail lights Non-working Pantograph In this particular case the locomotive is being sold separately, hence there is no excuse of an ambiguity between the advertised features of the locomotive and accompanying DVT. If however this is another 'copy and paste' effort on the Hornby Website and the forthcoming model does NOT feature the above refinements then is it definitely a case of infringing the Trades Description Act? Some of the description is very specific and therefore easily debated with Hornby should the loco not have it (e.g 'sprung buffers') but how on earth do you quantify or qualify 'extensive detail'?; it is a completely meaningless phrase of the sort beloved by admen. Everybody's idea of what it means will be different and it doesn't even say it is 'accurate detail' - so definitely one area where they could getaway with it I would think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swifty11 Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I own a full charter relief train and I love it! Only one problem, the 90!! It's rubbish!! Except for that the rest of the pack is good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickL2008 Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Hi - looking at the picture and looking at another product on the Hornby websire... this class 90 isnt going to be an all new model, If you look theres the Freightliner liveried 86637 model which the site also lists has "Extensive detail" and the actual model is the same old Hornby 86 thats been released before, but with a new motor in it ... looks like that description is a bit misleading, but guess it depends on your perception of the words " Extensive detail" .. I think I agree with Stationmaster that its just a meaningless phrase to " big up" a model that us as modellers know that its anything but that in reality NL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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