The truth won't hurt

[Ray H]

Apologies if this has been posted in the wrong area, feel free to move it.

 

A couple of months ago I visited a local show where I saw a small supplier's demonstration of a prouct that was of interest to me. Although I didn't purchase the item at the time I did take one of the supplier's leaflets and after some further research decided to purchase the item subject to some answers to some questions that I posed by email.

 

I didn't receive an answer to my mail so I called the supplier, apparently just as he'd completed packing all his stock to take to a distant show that would take a whole day's driving to get there. I was advised that there had been problems with the supplier's electronic mail, which is why I'd not had a reply to my mail.

 

I asked my questions (and a few more) and was sufficiently satisfied with the answers to place an order which I was told would be despatched at the end of the following week, when the supplier returned from the exhibition. I did wonder why it would only take a day to get there but best part of a week to return!

 

I'm 99.9% certain that I was told that my card would not be debited until the item had been despatched.

 

In due course I checked my card statement and discovered that the card had been debited last Friday (8 days ago). I therefore expected delivery early the following week.

 

There'd been no delivery by Wednesday so I called and left a message on an answering machine. I called a couple of times more when the message I left was responded to and eventally got through. The person I needed to speak to wouldn't be available until the following morning. I was advised that they would call me then.

 

When there were no calls the following morning I called them again and was advised that my purchases had been despatched two days before - the next working day after my card had been debited. When I indicated that the item had not been received I was advised that they had been sent by Parcel Post (with the implication that this was why they had not been delivered), in a package that was unlikely to fit through our letterbox.

 

As we would be out for large parts of the next couple of days I was expecting a trip to the sorting office to collect my package.

 

The package never arrived on Thursday or Friday (nor had any attempt been made to deliver it).

 

Imagine my surprise when, having been out for most of this morning, I returned home to find the package has been pushed through the letterbox. Furthermore, the package had been stamped at a Post Office and clearly showed a (stamp printed) date of Thursday this week! My guess is that the package wasn't posted until after I'd made my most recent telephone call.

 

It did seem strange to me that every item of stock was heading to a show, leaving no scope to respond to mail and telephone orders.

 

However, I take exception to being told untruths - and I don't know exactly how many I was told. We all make mistakes and we all overlook to do something that we'd promised to do. I may not like being told that my order has been overlooked (or that stock needs to be replensihed), but I'd accept it because it is the truth. I detest being treated like an idiot and can advise the said supplier that no matter how good I think their product is, if asked I shall now only recommend it to others after truthfully relating my own experiences when dealing with the said supplier.

[hollywoodfoundry]

Imagine my surprise when, having been out for most of this morning, I returned home to find the package has been pushed through the letterbox. Furthermore, the package had been stamped at a Post Office and clearly showed a (stamp printed) date of Thursday this week! My guess is that the package wasn't posted until after I'd made my most recent telephone call.

 

It did seem strange to me that every item of stock was heading to a show, leaving no scope to respond to mail and telephone orders.

 

It would not be the first time that a parcel is lodged at a post office, gets lost, found later and then postmarked several days or weeks later. I have had it happen several times. The postmark date is not always a reliable indicator.

 

For small suppliers, taking everything to a show is not unusual either.

[Ray H]

I also worked in the trade, although more years ago than I care to remember! And I also attended exhibitions.

 

I could just about accept that all the stock was heading for a show but I did question that it took one day to get there, but five to get back! However, I recognise that the trader may have taken the opportunity to have a few days out on the way back.

 

My gripe is that I am pretty certain that some of what I was told was untrue. Was it a coincidence that the mail problems arose just before a show (possibly when all stock was needed for the upcoming show, so other orders would be an inconvenience in the meantime)?

 

As I originally indicated, I'm 99.9% certain that I was told that the goods would be despatched before the money was debited to my card. As far as I can tell the money went nearly a week before the goods were sent. It doesn't matter that much as the amount was only small and I shan't pay the card bill for well over a month. It is the principle of being told one thing and another happening.

 

I'd already technically been inconvenienced by having to wait a week for the order to be processed (although, again, that it didn't matter as I'm not ready to use the item yet). I would have thought that the trader would therefore been keen to get things moving as soon as they could when they returned from the show. Fair enough, if all the stock went at the show and needed replinishing, I can accept that (and good luck to them, it proves how good the product could be). Why can't I be told that?

 

I may have only wanted a small order (but I was likely to want more in due course). Not calling when I was advised that they would - and there was no apology when I did speak to them - doesn't adhere me to a supplier.

 

I was very careful in my initial post to indicate that it was the stamp not the frank that was dated. Modern parcel stamps are affixed at point of acceptance into the system (as far as I know) i.e. at the Post Office, and carry the date that the stamp is printed. The stamp was clearly dated just three days ago.

 

I have been very careful not to name or even provide any clues to the supplier's identity and I have no intention of doing so. All I'm suggesting is that in my view, untruths can tarnish their reputation far more than telling the truth.

[Bernard Lamb]

So what's the problem?

Goods delivered within 28 days as per the legal requirement.

He might have told you the odd little untruth, but was his action any worse than that of a bank, a secondhand car dealer, a mobile phone company etc etc.

That's the way of the world.

I don't like it either, but having a rant about it will not change things one iota.

Bernard

[Oldddudders]

And funny things do happen in the post. A couple of weeks back, I sent off a jiffy bag to an RMWebber in Switzerland, by handing it over the counter at the post office, where the lady affixed a printed stamp and I paid her. Job done. 4 days later it appeared in my letterbox - the (compulsory in France) sender's address on the back having been mistaken for the delivery address, despite including the word Expediteur (sender).

[corax67]

The truth won't hurt . . . . well sometimes it will.

 

Had this individual been totally open with you and said that, due to pressure of show commitments etc, that your order would not be processed for over 2 weeks then would you still have been prepared to commit to the purchase?

 

Small suppliers do their best to manage their customers expectations whilst also having to balance many other demands (perhaps a day job) and whilst I do not condone the deliberate misleading of customers by any supplier i am enough of a pragmatist to realise when I need to lower my expectations of service levels.

 

It is disappointing that you have received less than ideal service but these things happen.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

The supplier told you he had used parcel post.

 

You are indeed fortunate that it only took two weeks.

 

At the moment the Post Office seem to be undergoing major problems delivering anything. A percentage of mail is being returned 'gone away' because it hasn't been delivered. Some second class mail is taking nearly a month to arrive.

 

I have posted elsewhere about the use of small suppliers and the mindset needed to do business with them.

 

If you were that concerned about delivery times you should have followed him to the exhibition and bought it there. Instant purchase......at a cost!

 

You have the goods now and you haven't mentioned how good or bad they are so i assume you are satisfied.

 

You will trade with this supplier again if he has what you want and you cannot obtain it elsewhere.

[coachmann]

I would advise caution when being critical of small suppliers. The model world has changed dramatically over the past two decades and the days of the big shop stocking everything under the sun has all but gone. In addition, time flies and many owners of small firms simply got old and sold out when they reached retirement age. Not being as viable as they were in the days when modellers did a lot of building, the people that have taken these busnesses over have to keep their day job too.

 

It cannot be easy juggling the two, but the parts are at least still available even if deliveries are not super-quick. I admire these small traders because truth to tell, I tried marketting white metal castings and the time spent processing, wrapping and posting mirriads of small packages just wasnt viable, well not to me and that was 20 years ago. P*ss these small traders off and the parts may simply not be available one day.

[charliepetty]

As a 'Small Trader' here at DC Kits we try to get orders out within 28days, I often get grief from customers who place an order online on a Thursday, this is fine but I cannot even look at it before Monday an I am packing on Thursday, Driving there on Friday, At the Show on Saturday & Sunday, Driving home last week from Perth on the Monday and arriving here at 3.30pm on Monday, Totally knackered it started going through the Online & postal orders on the Tuesday. Some items were either waiting delivery from Australia, America & UK or out of stock. So duly ordered (Covering mimimum order charges)they arrived here the following Friday & Saturday morning (Excellent but I was out setting up a show of the Friday) After that weekend I sat down on the Monday to get some orders upto date, thus posting them out nearly 3 weeks later!

 

Yes I know it all my fault, I should stock everything on my Website, every kit I list I should pack and have available from stock, should have more of the items in stock that have longer deliveries, but I don't. The reason is the kit market is collapsing around our ears, in 10 years their won't hardly be one.

 

Has anyone noticed that the likes of Hattons etc do not even attempt to cover this side of the market. I wonder why. (Answer: No profit in it!)

 

Charlie DC Kits.

PPS I do try my best, work 7 days a week possible at less than the minimum hourly rate. Thank for ALL your support but we are a dying breed.

[Guest jim s-w]

Apologies if this has been posted in the wrong area, feel free to move it.

if asked I shall now only recommend it to others after truthfully relating my own experiences when dealing with the said supplier.

 

And your experiences are they dispatched the package the next working day after they took payment then it was delayed in the post. You cant PROVE that wansn't the case so you have to take it in good faith. Anything further embelishment of the 'facts' is just supposition on your part.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[Mike Bellamy]

As some of you may know, I help a 'Small Trader' at shows and I know that his work pattern is very similar to Charlie and DC Kits

 

 

. . . . packing on Thursday, driving there on Friday, At the Show on Saturday & Sunday, Driving home on the Monday and arriving totally knackered . . . . started going through the Online & postal orders on the Tuesday.

 

My friend takes a van loaded with ALL his stock and when he gets home he might find that we have sold an item for which there is an internet order - but what is the alternative - he can hardly switch off the website for 5 days every time he goes to a show. There isn't enough business to run it as either internet only or shows only so what does he do

 

I have extracted the following from the Terms and Conditions on his web site - there is nothing more I need to add - it says it all

 

Most of the kits listed are produced in house and whilst we try to keep a small number in stock. However, we regularly attend model shows at weekends and these tend to clear the stock. This may well mean your model will be produced in response to your order. We therefore quote a delivery of 28 days from order but will advise by e-mail with details of your actual order

 

The cost of postage is the curse of the mail order business as most customers think that realistic prices are a rip off as they rarely send chunky items by post. Many traders offer post free shipping with orders above a certain value but this can’t be true, you’re paying for that postage somewhere as the Post Office doesn’t start delivering for free when you take a big package to them.

 

Standard Delivery – This is currently £5.00 per order and if you order via the online shopping this amount will be added to your order.

 

Small Items – As the postage isn’t charged until we process the order we will use common sense to adjust the postage for very small items. E.g. a couple of items in an envelope may be charged at £2.50 for postage.

 

Large Items – Heavy stuff can’t be done for the £5.00. In fact the Royal Mail or Parcel Force prices for heavy items are a lot more. The usual method for heavy items is to ship them with a local carrier and the typical charge is £7.50

 

Special Items – Occasionally we decide that the more expensive loco’s need insuring to their full value and need secure guaranteed delivery. We make an additional charge for this and say so on the web page referring to the item. If we say Insured Carrier take this to mean Insured Carrier or similar service as for example we may use Royal Mail Special Delivery instead.

 

Small Print: The final decision on method of shipping is ours although we will do our best to fit in with any special requirements you may have. As XXX is a business we run in addition to our normal day jobs it has to fit in around the requirements of these. An example of how this may affect your order is that occasionally I have to work away from home in which case I will deal with your order as soon as I can on my return. If I said I would ship by courier and I am working away from home in the week you may get your package by Royal Mail Special Delivery as the carrier doesn’t collect on weekends and the post office is open Saturday mornings.

 

I use our local post office. Like many they are threatened by being rationalised if their business isn’t high enough and they go out of their way to be helpful. Rather than cause a massive queue by turning up with crates of orders to post I leave it with them and they work through it in quiet moments. The usual operation is that they ship stuff first class if they can and I mark any specials for them to do. Occasionally the special requirements get missed and the items get sent normal post. If this happens I apologise but that is beyond my control and is a glitch in normally excellent service

 

To ship items the post office has to be open! Might seem obvious but as the day job often requires me to travel I can't always get to the post office before they close even if I packed your order and took it with me intending to post it. The day job pays the mortgage it therefore has to get the priority. The only undertaking I can give is to ship your order as soon as I can.

 

 

Mike

[Ray H]

I was told that the goods would be despatched at the end of the following week, approx seven days after I placed the order. I wasn't in a hurry for them and accepted what I was told. Equally, as I've already indicated, I'm 99.9% certain that I was told that my card wouldn't be debited until the goods had been despatched. I wouldn't have minded if the money had been drawn before then but having been told that it wouldn't, that's what I expected.

 

I was promised a return call (effectively) within 12 hours. That never materialised. I was not afforded the courtesy of being either told why the call wasn't returned when I was told it would be, nor was I offered an apology because the call hadn't been returned. Courtesy costs nothing and is surely a free way of keeping customers "sweet".

 

I was told the goods would be despatched the following weekend, when the supplier returned from the show. The evidence that I have suggests that they were in fact despatched a week after that, again with no explanation given for the delay.

 

According to the date on the stamp - that is the date the stamp was printed, not the date the package/stamp was franked, the goods weren't despatched until nearly a week after the money was drawn and four days after I was told that the package had been sent. Is it a coincidence the date on the stamp was that of the day after I spoke to the supplier querying the non arrival of the goods.

 

I've bought numerous things from a number of people, small and not so small traders over the last few months. With only one exception to which this thread refers, they have arrived when I anticipated they would either because I was told when they would arrive or because they turned up almost by return.

 

I'll support any trader, big or small, who can supply what I need at a price and within a time frame that I am happy with - I try to plan ahead so that items aren't needed immediately.I don't expect to be told untruths for doing so.

 

Equally I'll be critical of couriers if they blow out with deliveries.

 

I don't think it is right to blatantly blame a courier when the evidence that I believe i have suggests that it is the trader that is at fault.

 

I fully understand the comments that everyone is making but they all appear to be missing the point that I am trying to make. I am mainly referring to the apparent untruths that I have been told and the fact that someone else is being incorrectly "blamed".

 

I'll tolerate extended delivery times (if they advertised or I'm informed when or after ordering). I can understand that stock runs out due to unexpected high demand at shows. I realise that illness or work or shows can limit time for servicing customers. I just don't appreciate the need to tell untruths.

 

 

Edited to correct a typo and to add the last paragraph as a result of posts whilst I was initially typing.

[Guest jim s-w]

Hi Ray

 

You said it yourself 'apparent'. Surely you can see why people are taking a wider view. Is this a one off with this trader for you or have you had this before with them?

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[Chris Higgs]

I'll tolerate extended delivery times (if they advertised or I'm informed when or after ordering). I can understand that stock runs out due to unexpected high demand at shows. I realise that illness or work or shows can limit time for servicing customers. I just don't appreciate the need to tell untruths.

 

However, as has been pointed out, a normal delivery time is within 28 days (unless stated otherwise). I know a lot of people expect it much quicker, but it isn't actually required by law. In your case, it looks like you could claim that a different delivery time was agreed. So, extended in practice means more than 28 days. Perhaps not your definition.

 

It probably doesn't take 5 days to get back froma show, but perhaps the supplier has a day job Mon-Thurs?

 

As a small supplier, I also struggle sometimes to get stuff out quickly, even if I do try. If someone calls up after 2 days asking/demanding where his order is, it generally just gets cancelled as I don't need the hassle.

 

Chris Higgs

[charliepetty]

However, as has been pointed out, a normal delivery time is within 28 days (unless stated otherwise). I know a lot of people expect it much quicker, but it isn't actually required by law. In your case, it looks like you could claim that a different delivery time was agreed. So, extended in practice means more than 28 days. Perhaps not your definition.

 

It probably doesn't take 5 days to get back froma show, but perhaps the supplier has a day job Mon-Thurs?

 

As a small supplier, I also struggle sometimes to get stuff out quickly, even if I do try. If someone calls up after 2 days asking/demanding where his order is, it generally just gets cancelled as I don't need the hassle.

 

Chris Higgs

 

I understand your feelings here, I often get frustrated especially with blunt and impolite e.mails. I think most small manufacturers do there best but we do need time off, we dont work 9 to 5 you know!

 

Charlie

[Ray H]

This was my first dealing with the supplier, other than a very informed and detailed discussion at the show where I saw their product. They even indicated other supplier's products that I could use.

 

I am grateful that the goods were shipped as quick as they were. I am equally pleased with the results of the small test that I have made using the product - the results suggest that the product will meet my requirement.

 

I unreservedly apologise to the supplier if I misheard them when they advised me that they had posted my item two days before I called them - I called them because they had advised me when I ordered that the goods would be shipped by X date and that my card would then be debited. When the debit appeared on my card and the goods didn't drop through my letterbox within what I considered a reasonable time (for the courier used) I called the supplier to confirm desptach/advise of possible loss. As I have previously indicated, I wasn't in a particular hurry for the goods.

 

What annoyed me was that the stamp was printed and (as far as I am concerned) affixed to the package (at the time of posting, by the supplier) the day after I was told by the supplier that they had sent the package two days previously i.e. three days before the package was actually posted.

 

There was no need for the supplier to tell me that the goods had been sent when they hadn't yet been despatched and even less excuse to try and blame someone else for the non delivery. That's what I'm suggesting does the trader no good. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

And with that may I respectfully suggest that we leave things there.