stewartingram Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 Search as I may I cannot find the answer to this. An ER 9F 2-10-0 famously was put to work on an ECML express, and reported to be doing excess speed so further use of the type was banned. I've seen a photo of it taken within a station, under an overall roof, and in filthy condition; but I just can't find it now. Does anyone else know the id of the loco please? Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 Stewart, the September 2007 issue of 'Steam Days' has an article titled 'BR Standard 9F 2-10-0s on Passenger Trains'. From that, it appears you may be thinking of the use of 92184 by Grantham shed on an Edinburgh-King's Cross train on 16 August 1958. It reached 90MPH down from Stoke summit and arrived a couple of minutes early in London. There's no picture of it in the article, though. The article says that this exploit, plus that of 92164 in reaching 86MPH on the Great Central line, both discussed by W.A. Tuplin in the Railway Magazine under the title 'Ninety with a Nine', led to the banning of the use of 9Fs on passenger trains on the LMR and ER, except in emergencies. (The WR, however, continued to use them in a pretty big way.) Other 9Fs mentioned as being used on passenger trains on the ECML, either scheduled or in emergencies, are 92034, 92038, 92144, 92148, 92170, 92173, 92179, 92182, 92186, 92187, 92195 and 92199. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted July 26, 2011 Author Share Posted July 26, 2011 Thanks for that informative reply. I think 92184 was the one I was thinking of, I expected others were used as well. The photo I recall is a front n/s view under an overall roof I think, with an absolutely disgusting weathered loco, and the caption/article at the time mentions Grantham and this speed exploit. I believe it was calculated that the wheels were lifting off the track at every revolution at that speed!. Just that I'd like to renumber my Bacchy model to an apprpriate one and weather it heavily, otherwise just so many to choose from on the ECML. Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicester Thumper Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 why ban them? they seem like good engines for expresses if they can do that speed!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
great central Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 There is a recording on one of the Peter Handford records, of, I think 92091 on a passenger train on the GC. Can't find the recording now but it sure is travelling, judging by the sound of the exhaust and the wheelbeats. There are two different ones on this short clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uaKAL2iQCw The first one, I don't think is an Annesley engine as it doesn't have a BR1F tender, and appears to be working through to somewhere else. The second is an Annesley loco, the coach roof boards showing London-Nottingham. the stock will be deposited at the carriage sheds just beyond the opposite end on the station. What I also find remarkable about this footage is that despite most of the locos being filthy, they are pretty much steam tight and the coaching stock is also commendably clean . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 why ban them? they seem like good engines for expresses if they can do that speed!! Why ban them from regular use on express passenger trains? Reasons given include: - increased risk of bearings running hot - significantly higher wear on piston rings, valve rings and cylinder liners - wheels lifting off the track with each revolution, with wheels revolving at eight and a half RPS - increased wear on driving wheel springs and stress on frames - combination of last two reasons above in high-mileage engines increasing the risk of damage to track and/or derailment Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galtee More Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Search as I may I cannot find the answer to this. An ER 9F 2-10-0 famously was put to work on an ECML express, and reported to be doing excess speed so further use of the type was banned. I've seen a photo of it taken within a station, under an overall roof, and in filthy condition; but I just can't find it now. Does anyone else know the id of the loco please? Stewart Stewart, The incident was very well described by Peter Tatlow (Shedmaster at King's X) in one of his books; either Top Shed or Eas Coast Pacifics at Work. A bigwig, probably the General Manager for BR (ER) had travelled to Colwick for the Depot's Sports Dey in his saloon. The GM, in his saloon, was taken back to Grantham to be put on to the rear of an Up express. Being a Saturday, there was a shortage of locomotives; I think there was also a failure somewhere in the equation. The saloon was duly propelled on to the rear of ther train. Because of the problems mentioned in the previous paragraph, Grantham had allocated a 9F to this train rather that the diagrammed Pacific. Some smart running, particularly down Stoke Bank, with speeds in the 90s, was reflected in the arival time at King's Cross. The GM strolled down the platform to congratulate the footplate crew but, instead of finding a smart green Pacific, was shocked to find a grubby freight locomotive. He was about to issue a notice to the effect that henceforth the maximum speed of a locomotives would be the diameter of it's driving wheels in inches. This idea was knocked on its head when it was pointed out to said GM that A1s, A3s and A4s, would be limited to 80mph, and A2s and V2s to 74mph ! I can thoroughly recommend getting hold of Peter's books and reading it for yourself. There is, of course, heaps more of for those interested in the ECML. On another note, Dr Tuplin was very much a theorist, not a practical engineer or railwayman. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Galtee More is probably thinking of Peter Townend rather than Peter Tatlow. The WR made good use of 9Fs on expresses too. For several days in June and July 1960 92220 Evening Star worked the up Red Dragon and down Capitals United. On one of those days the Dragon was 15 early into Paddington. Apart from that they were out in force on summer Saturdays. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted July 28, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 28, 2011 I seem to recall that Gerard Fiennes recounted a similar incident with a 9F doing 90 down stoke only he was in the brake van of an unfitted freight. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 28, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 28, 2011 Galtee More is probably thinking of Peter Townend rather than Peter Tatlow. The WR made good use of 9Fs on expresses too. For several days in June and July 1960 92220 Evening Star worked the up Red Dragon and down Capitals United. On one of those days the Dragon was 15 early into Paddington. Apart from that they were out in force on summer Saturdays. Chris The 92220 incident was a bit of a story according to one of my past supervisors. At the time he was a Panel Foreman (i.e.a Driver who acted as relief for Depot Foremen) at Canton and somehow they had got themselves into a situation where they finished up after various stepping-up of locos with the 'Castle' left to work the train without a coupling shackle on the back of the tender and a fully prepared (ready for another job) 92220 standing in the shed yard. So the Indoor and Outdoor Foremen duly put the 9F on the train instead of the 'Castle'. Perhaps they cooked up the story of the coupling afterwards to cover their backs for a bit of daring on their part should they get hauled over the coals but that was the tale as told to me a bit over a decade later. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted July 28, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 28, 2011 why ban them? they seem like good engines for expresses if they can do that speed!! Others have posted more factual responses, but I think it is simply a question of the 9F being demonstrated to be a very successful and versatile design, well-able to step into the breech when other locos were unavailable - but the wear rate on all the moving parts is simply bound to be higher on a loco with 5' drivers than one with 6'+ drivers, as true express passenger locos typically have/had. All the parts of the 9F's motion would be whizzing round faster than intended, with a risk - as has been said - of catastrophic failure if something isn't quite right. If we drive a small-engined hatchback at top speed all day, it will clap out faster than a bigger-engined car driven at the same speed. This is the same thing in steam loco terms, perhaps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 45156 Posted July 28, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 28, 2011 There can be no doubt that the 9F had an incredible turn of speed for a small wheeled ten coupled. My dad's cousin, who was a true railwayman and of high enough level to be "in the know" was one of the observers when they tried a 9F on the GSW main line, and he once told me that the speed achieved was so high that all concerned were sworn to silence otherwise as he put it "we'd all be down the Labour Exchange". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galtee More Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Galtee More is probably thinking of Peter Townend rather than Peter Tatlow. The WR made good use of 9Fs on expresses too. For several days in June and July 1960 92220 Evening Star worked the up Red Dragon and down Capitals United. On one of those days the Dragon was 15 early into Paddington. Apart from that they were out in force on summer Saturdays. Chris Chris, Yes, you're quite right, Peter Townend. I'd been corresponding with Mark Tatlow and at my age it's sometimes difficult to think of two or more things at the same time. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JOHNMCDRAGON Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Just to go off on a tangent folks, we've been talking about speed of 9F's when used for jobs they were not intended for. One set of photos of 9F that amazed me (and appeared in Backtrack a few years ago) was in about 1965/6 with a 9F being used as station pilot at Glasgow Buchanan ST station. Anyone got any other examples of 9F's being used as 'overkill' like this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bon Accord Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 John, Never mind unusual workings, that's a very unusual location for a Spaceship. Was any reason given as to why she was there? Perhaps doing a spot of running in after a visit to St Rollox or Cowlairs? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JOHNMCDRAGON Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Hi Jim, just looked up mag, was June 2006 issue of Steamworld. The date was August 8th 1964 and loco was No.92015.It was previously (in 1962) a 26A Manchester Newton Heath loco. The loco may have been at works as you,ve suggested but from photo looks usual mucky, grimy last days of steam condition. The article does n't mention anything about this loco being there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted July 31, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 31, 2011 At the RPM needed to reach 90MPH, if a 9F had been a Pacific fitted with 7 foot driving wheels a new world speed record would have been on the cards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bon Accord Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 It must have been mightily impressive sight to witness. Combine a late train with a 'heavy hitter' of a Driver and it's no surprise they decided to have a go. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Hi Jim, just looked up mag, was June 2006 issue of Steamworld. The date was August 8th 1964 and loco was No.92015.It was previously (in 1962) a 26A Manchester Newton Heath loco. The loco may have been at works as you,ve suggested but from photo looks usual mucky, grimy last days of steam condition. The article does n't mention anything about this loco being there. 92015 was a Kingmoor engine by that date. I noted it on St Rollox shed on July 27 and August 5 1964, so it was around for a while. That would suggest it had been up for works attention (or St Rollox shed liked it and held on to it ). By that date, Glasgow works were not always repainting engines. I've actually got photos that show that one engine which went through works in Glasgow about that time not only wasn't painted, but went in without a smokebox number plate and came out the same way! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted July 31, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 31, 2011 92164 pictured on passenger duty at Birmingham New St (no date given) 92164 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.