Signalling help required please for West Riding layout

[AJ427]

Hi,

 

I'm about to start laying track for my as yet unnamed Yorkshire West Riding layout and thinking ahead I want to get the signalling correct at day one so I can plan everything in. Despite a lot of research on these forums and elsewhere, signalling is really not my strong point and I'm not sure where to start. The layout is fictional, depicting a suburban station and small goods yard on a secondary mainline somewhere between Leeds and Bradford around 1957. In my fictional history the line was originally operated by the Great Northern Railway. I've attached two plans; one showing the modelled scenic section and the other showing how I envisage the railway infrastructure off-stage beyond the bridge in the down direction. In the up direction is a short tunnel but I'm not sure what would be beyond this. Note that the headshunt is goods only and is not used as a bay platform. I've lettered the points for clarity. Also aware I may need some safety points.

 

Any help greatly appreciated.

 

Modelled Scenic Section

 

Assumed off-stage

[jamie92208]

Without knowing how the GN did things the first point that I would make is that the single slip needs to be lettered GA and GB. It would then be operated by two different levers in the box. 1 would operate H and what I call GA which gives you a crossover. This wouold probably have had a ground signal at either end. The other lever wouyld have operated D and GB to allow for traffic exiting the goods yard. The Midland would ahve had a ground signal in the goods yard but I'm not sure about the GN. The book called teh great Northern railway in west Yorkshire has layout plans of most of the ex GN stations in the area which should give you some ideas.

 

Jamie

[Flying Pig]

Nowt to do with signals, but the goods yard looks like it might be rather inconvenient to shunt. Is it based on a real location?

[The Stationmaster]

I'm no expert on GN signalling but i reckon you could easily getaway with just one running signal (i.e. the sort with full size semaphore arms) on the modelled scenic area - on the down Main at the end of the platform protecting the crossover. The protecting signal on the Up line would be the other side of the road bridge for siting reasons.

 

You will definitely need ground disc signals at the toe of the crossover point in the Down line and at the toe foe the single slip which forms the other end of the crossover in the Up line - by 1957 they could as likely be to the standard LNER/Eastern Region pattern as anything else. You also need a signal at the toe of points D to control access back out to the running lines - my personal choice would be to use a miniature semaphore for this and have a yellow arm on it - doing it like this would avoid any other signals in the sidings, be absolute ER prototypical and create a little bit of variety in the form of your visible signals as well as meeting protypical sighting criteria. You can also turn round and laugh at anyone who tells you there weren't such things as yellow miniature semaphore because the Eastern had a bit of a liking for them

[TheSignalEngineer]

Nowt to do with signals, but the goods yard looks like it might be rather inconvenient to shunt. Is it based on a real location?

 

To access the coal drops, a shunt into the goods shed would be required for more that an odd wagon. Locos were not usually allowed inside, so capstan shunting would be needed. Would it be better for points B & C to be toe to toe?

 

Also for trapping purposes point end D should lie for the siding and be double ended with the slip.

[AJ427]

Thanks for the replies.

 

It's not based on a particular location Simon but inspired by several amalgamated ideas/photographs. I agree that it's unusual and probably difficult (but not impossible) to shunt. My excuse is that the site is fairly restricted in the bottom of a narrow valley.

 

I'm no expert on GN signalling but i reckon you could easily getaway with just one running signal (i.e. the sort with full size semaphore arms) on the modelled scenic area - on the down Main at the end of the platform protecting the crossover. The protecting signal on the Up line would be the other side of the road bridge for siting reasons.

 

You will definitely need ground disc signals at the toe of the crossover point in the Down line and at the toe foe the single slip which forms the other end of the crossover in the Up line - by 1957 they could as likely be to the standard LNER/Eastern Region pattern as anything else. You also need a signal at the toe of points D to control access back out to the running lines - my personal choice would be to use a miniature semaphore for this and have a yellow arm on it - doing it like this would avoid any other signals in the sidings, be absolute ER prototypical and create a little bit of variety in the form of your visible signals as well as meeting protypical sighting criteria. You can also turn round and laugh at anyone who tells you there weren't such things as yellow miniature semaphore because the Eastern had a bit of a liking for them

 

I like the idea of the yellow shunting signal Mike! I guess it's this one here near the bottom: http://www.signalbox.../semaphore4.htm

It would be interesting to model. Assuming this was the case would the points in the yard be controlled by the box or by hand levers?

Also would there not need to be a starter signal at the left end of the up platform?

 

To access the coal drops, a shunt into the goods shed would be required for more that an odd wagon. Locos were not usually allowed inside, so capstan shunting would be needed. Would it be better for points B & C to be toe to toe?

 

Also for trapping purposes point end D should lie for the siding and be double ended with the slip.

 

I was ignorant of the no locos in the goods shed rule - you mean something like this (assuming I can get it to fit)? I suppose this could be a double slip.

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

..... but i reckon you could easily getaway with just one running signal (i.e. the sort with full size semaphore arms) on the modelled scenic area - on the down Main at the end of the platform protecting the crossover.

 

You also need a signal at the toe of points D to control access back out to the running lines - my personal choice would be to use a miniature semaphore for this and have a yellow arm on it - doing it like this would avoid any other signals in the sidings, be absolute ER prototypical and create a little bit of variety in the form of your visible signals as well as meeting protypical sighting criteria. You can also turn round and laugh at anyone who tells you there weren't such things as yellow miniature semaphore because the Eastern had a bit of a liking for them

 

 

Perhaps if the Up Starter was round the corner beyond the bridge a Banner Repeater might have been provided to assist sighting, especially if local practice allowed a train to be dropped into to the platform for station duties before Line Clear was obtained.

 

Nice suggestion for the miniature yellow arm semaphore for the headshunt.

[The Stationmaster]

 

I like the idea of the yellow shunting signal Mike! I guess it's this one here near the bottom: http://www.signalbox.../semaphore4.htm

It would be interesting to model. Assuming this was the case would the points in the yard be controlled by the box or by hand levers?

Also would there not need to be a starter signal at the left end of the up platform?

 

That is indeed the sort of miniature semaphore signal I meant Andrew - you very rarely seem them modelled (but no doubt everybody reading this thread will now be doing it). Points D - as others have mentioned - would be worked from the signalbox and all others in the yard would be hand points; as it happens I quite like the yard layout but it will be something of a b*gger to shunt although great fun (if you don't weaken) and 'no locos in the goods shed' wasn't a hard & fast rule although in the situation you have devised a capstan would be likely for the simple reason that a loco would not be kept there all day just to move wagons through the goods shed.

 

You don't necessarily need a Starter at the far end of the Up platform but you wouldn't be criticised if you did have one (although I do like SE's idea of a banner repeater - yet more signalling variety

 

 

 

 

 

[jamie92208]

The Midland also used miniature semaphores. I've got two to do on Lancaster Green Ayre on posts about 6' high in places that are marked as ground signals on the signalling diagram. In both locations I think it meant that the signal could be seen from the box that controlled it as well as being easier to sight for the loco crew. On Midland locos they were riht ahnd drive and both my examples were on the firemans side. They inly show up faintly in the photos so Idon't think I can post a picture.

 

Jamie

[AJ427]

Perhaps if the Up Starter was round the corner beyond the bridge a Banner Repeater might have been provided to assist sighting, especially if local practice allowed a train to be dropped into to the platform for station duties before Line Clear was obtained.

 

 

 

That is indeed the sort of miniature semaphore signal I meant Andrew - you very rarely seem them modelled (but no doubt everybody reading this thread will now be doing it). Points D - as others have mentioned - would be worked from the signalbox and all others in the yard would be hand points; as it happens I quite like the yard layout but it will be something of a b*gger to shunt although great fun (if you don't weaken) and 'no locos in the goods shed' wasn't a hard & fast rule although in the situation you have devised a capstan would be likely for the simple reason that a loco would not be kept there all day just to move wagons through the goods shed.

You don't necessarily need a Starter at the far end of the Up platform but you wouldn't be criticised if you did have one (although I do like SE's idea of a banner repeater - yet more signalling variety

 

 

I've made a slight tweak and altered the points into the siding and goods shed replacing them with a single slip (though this could be a double). This now allows the coal drops to be loco shunted. I think the slightly altered geometry has made the run-around points above the goods shed flow better (they looked a bit trainset before). As suggested access to the running lines from the headshunt will be controlled by a minature yellow arm signal and there will be a banner repeater (probably on a bracket fixed to the side of the steps) on the up platform. The crossover will be protected and shunted as per The Stationmaster's suggestion above. With just these few diverse signals I think I may have to try having them all working! (Sets himself a challenge )

 

[The Stationmaster]

I've made a slight tweak and altered the points into the siding and goods shed replacing them with a single slip (though this could be a double). This now allows the coal drops to be loco shunted. I think the slightly altered geometry has made the run-around points above the goods shed flow better (they looked a bit trainset before). As suggested access to the running lines from the headshunt will be controlled by a minature yellow arm signal and there will be a banner repeater (probably on a bracket fixed to the side of the steps) on the up platform. The crossover will be protected and shunted as per The Stationmaster's suggestion above. With just these few diverse signals I think I may have to try having them all working! (Sets himself a challenge )

 

 

I suggest that you tweak no more (without wishing to be personal about your tweaking) as that now looks pretty good and will be 'fun' to operate I think. The only think you might need to do - if you can - is increase the space interval between sidings but as it's clearly a 'traditional' yard you could get away with the old figure (9ft centres if I remember rightly, except where loading carts of course). But that little item apart I think it could be rather tremendous with lots of potential for both appearance and, for such a small space, operational challenge.

 

I've made a slight tweak and altered the points into the siding and goods shed replacing them with a single slip (though this could be a double). This now allows the coal drops to be loco shunted. I think the slightly altered geometry has made the run-around points above the goods shed flow better (they looked a bit trainset before). As suggested access to the running lines from the headshunt will be controlled by a minature yellow arm signal and there will be a banner repeater (probably on a bracket fixed to the side of the steps) on the up platform. The crossover will be protected and shunted as per The Stationmaster's suggestion above. With just these few diverse signals I think I may have to try having them all working! (Sets himself a challenge )

 

 

I suggest that you tweak no more (without wishing to be personal about your tweaking) as that now looks pretty good and will be 'fun' to operate I think. The only think you might need to do - if you can - is increase the space interval between sidings but as it's clearly a 'traditional' yard you could get away with the old figure (9ft centres if I remember rightly, except where loading carts of course). But that little item apart I think it could be rather tremendous with lots of potential for both appearance and, for such a small space, operational challenge.

[AJ427]

I suggest that you tweak no more (without wishing to be personal about your tweaking) as that now looks pretty good and will be 'fun' to operate I think. The only think you might need to do - if you can - is increase the space interval between sidings but as it's clearly a 'traditional' yard you could get away with the old figure (9ft centres if I remember rightly, except where loading carts of course). But that little item apart I think it could be rather tremendous with lots of potential for both appearance and, for such a small space, operational challenge.

 

 

Thanks Mike (and everyone else who chipped in), my tweaking is done as I'm quite happy with it. Now on to the hard work of actually building the thing.