Simon Moore Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Can anyone help me signal this plan i've drawn up. After much planning & ideas i think this is about as good as i am going to get in the space i have to use for a layout. I'm guessing that there is going to be a upper quad starter for the platform & a range of shunt signals for the sidings. Could anyone plot where & what i need. I've a MSE home upper quad & some shunt signals on order to go with the rest of the items i have for this plan. Cheers, Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted August 9, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 9, 2011 A few questions to help clarify what you need 1- What date/area are you modelling? 2- Is the line at the top a Passenger bay or just a loading dock? 3- Do you want to shunt at the station whilst another train is coming/going on the single line? 4- How far is it from the bridge to the first points? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Moore Posted August 10, 2011 Author Share Posted August 10, 2011 Hi Signal engineer, Right that is all cramped into a 6ft6 x 18 inch board so it is fairly tight. The first point is close to the bridge i think about 6 inch not even that. The period i am modeling is 1950-1967 Settle/Carlisle inspired. The top track is a bay for loading unloading parcels etc so no passenger traffic. I thought about the shunting whilst a passenger is in the platform & the answer is yes i will be doing that because i guess in real life scenarios each station has busy periods of traffic where it can get a bit hairy. Hopefully that answers the questions for you. Cheers Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted August 10, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 10, 2011 I haven't got access to anything for drawing or scanning at the moment, but I will try to talk you through my thoughts. Firstly on the track layout, you will need trap points on the Loading Bay platform and the exit from the sidings to protect the main line. For signalling I am assuming that all shunting moves will go beyond the bridge before coming back, therefore the Home and Starting signals will be off-scene. In that case I would then put single ground discs approximately 6 feet from the trap points for the Bay and siding exit, and a full semaphore signal at the bottom of the platform ramp. This signal could be on the right hand side to make it easier for the guard to see from the platform before departure. The crossover in the platform could be worked by a Ground Frame released from the signal box. This saves on rodding and gets rid of the need for signals at the crossover. The points from the run-round to the siding would be hand operated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Moore Posted August 10, 2011 Author Share Posted August 10, 2011 Thats easy enough to follow Signalengineer thank you for the help. As it happens i have everything to signal the layout on order which should arrive tomorrow so no need for extra orders in the future. All being well i can get this going soon i have more or less everything to finish off the layout just need the board now which i have been waiting for ( over 2 years ) from the model shop. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted August 10, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 10, 2011 As regards the crossover. The Midland would probably ahve worked it with one lever from the box and there would have been a ground signal to allow the loco to access the loop. If you go for the ground frame then this would have been locked/unlocked by a rodding run from the box. There would also ahve been a ground signal. The frame would have been enclosed in a wooden hut as the Midland didn't have a weather proof ground frame. I've modelled one of the huts in 7mm and might have the drawing somewhere. Otherwise I could send you a photo of the model. Also in the era that you were modelling there were still a few lower quadrant signal's around on the S & C and they were all position for sighting from a right hand drive loco. They were all changed by the early 60's. The posts were also taller than today's ones and your starter would be tall so that it would show against the sky with the bridge behind it. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 The posts were also taller than today's ones and your starter would be tall so that it would show against the sky with the bridge behind it. Unlikely for a platform starter from a terminus where the need is for sighting from close up, not from a fast running through train where the sky arm would be wanted. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted August 10, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 10, 2011 ................If you go for the ground frame then this would have been locked/unlocked by a rodding run from the box. There would also ahve been a ground signal. The frame would have been enclosed in a wooden hut as the Midland didn't have a weather proof ground frame. I've modelled one of the huts in 7mm and might have the drawing somewhere. Otherwise I could send you a photo of the model. ..............The posts were also taller than today's ones and your starter would be tall so that it would show against the sky with the bridge behind it. Jamie Midland ground frames were also sometimes released by an Annetts Key. This was taken from the frame in the box by the signalman and passed to the fireman so that he could unlock the points for the move. The Midland did have some outdoor frames, only electrically released ones were not weatherproof, although on the S&C covering would have been advisable. When frames were provided or in later years the SK80 or KI frames as manufactured at Crewe were used, this could stand anything. The KI frame is like the one made by Hornby in the Skaledale range. These could be released mechanically by rodding through a Midway Lock, by an Annetts Key of electrically. In such a location, as it was not necessary to see it from distance, the Platform Starter would have most likely been on a short post, around 16 feet above rail level. Tall posts were used to enhance sighting at speed, and quite often a co-acting arm was provided at low level if the signal was a Platform Starter as the driver of a train stopped in the station may have been unable to see the top arm clearly at night. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWSlack Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 .....shunting whilst a passenger is in the platform & the answer is yes .... How is the train engine to be released, then? What about the missing trap points? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWSlack Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 The first thing to be determined is, what trains are going to be run? If there is to be only one train engine at the station at any time then the working method is "One Engine In Stream", or "One Train Working" in modernspeak, and under such arrangements signals can be dispensed with. There will be a ground frame, and the frame will be unlocked from a key on the OES Train Staff carried by the train engine from the next signalbox in rear. If there is to be more than one train here at once, and with the track layout the need looks unlikely, then is the time to consider a different method of working and the signalling needed to prevent unauthorised moves Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 16, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 16, 2011 How is the train engine to be released, then? It would have to wait until the other work is complete and although it is probably more likely that the freight would run in a gap in the passenger service there could equally be a situation where the freight waits in the runround loop to depart after the passenger train has arrived - it all depends on all sort of factors 'beyond the fiddle yard' which simply need to be imagineered to suit what the OP wants. What about the missing trap points? There should indeed be some at the end of the loop of course. PS If the line is worked under OES/OTW it would need at least two groundframes, possibly 3 (depending on the distance between the point off the runround and that from the bay). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted August 17, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2011 In addition to the goods departing after a passenger has arrived, another possibility is the arrival of a push pull service ( or a nice steam railmotor). The goods would have to clear any wagons out of the way. It should be okay to run into the bay while some stand in the main platform provided the access into the bay could be signaled ( there should also be a trap on the bay). Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted August 17, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2011 The first thing to be determined is, what trains are going to be run? If there is to be only one train engine at the station at any time then the working method is "One Engine In Stream", or "One Train Working" in modernspeak, and under such arrangements signals can be dispensed with. There will be a ground frame, and the frame will be unlocked from a key on the OES Train Staff carried by the train engine from the next signalbox in rear. If there is to be more than one train here at once, and with the track layout the need looks unlikely, then is the time to consider a different method of working and the signalling needed to prevent unauthorised moves Try reading posts 2, 3 and 4. These established that the OP would like it that there could be two trains present, and commented on the need for trap points (your post 9) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted August 17, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2011 Try reading posts 2, 3 and 4. These established that the OP would like it that there could be two trains present, and commented on the need for trap points (your post 9) Thanks to Andy we now have a little face for such problems .. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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