Electrical Soldering

[Earl Bathurst]

Hi

Very silly Question but i am going to start soldering wires to my track tonight. Can i use flux when electrical soldering? Also which method would you recommend when soldering wires to the side of the rails.

Thanks Agiain

Scott

[Kenton]

I would use multicore solder (it has a rosin flux in the core of th solder) it is designed for electrical work and the residue is non-corrosive, unlike most active liquid and paste fluxes which will require washing away.

 

Next I would always solder droppers to the bottom of the rail whenever possible rather than the side or to fishplates. This is less obtrusive.

 

Tin the bottom of the rail, tin the wire then simply bring the two together with heat and remove the heat to allow to cool.

 

 

As always with any soldering the parts need to be clean and shiny.

 

Your biggest enemy with electrical soldering is a "dry joint" - this is of high resistance and has poor to nonexistent conductivity (not quite what you want) - it is caused by moving the parts being soldered before they have had time to cool (moving the wire before removing the heat)

 

No question is silly, even if it feels to be, there is sure to be someone else too scared to ask it.

[Classsix T]

Hi...which method would you recommend when soldering wires to the side of the rails.

 

Scott

Me? Get someone in who can do it neatly, properly and without all the swearing.

C6T.

[spamcan61]

Same as Kenton, I'd use multicore solder, either 60/40 or LMP, available from a variety of sources but not Maplin.

 

You shouldn't need additional flux for soldering to track unless it's really mucky, in which case I'd clean the area I was soldering to with a glass fibre brush before battle commences.

[Nile_Griffith]

If you really don't like the idea of soldering get in touch with Lucy at Modellers Mecca. last time I was in the she was selling fishplates with wires already soldered up!!!!!!!!!!!!! As someone who has done his apprenticeship soldering microphone cables I laughed but apparently they are selling like hot cakes....... or should I say like hot fishplates!

[Kenton]

If you really don't like the idea of soldering get in touch with Lucy at Modellers Mecca. last time I was in the she was selling fishplates with wires already soldered up!!!!!!!!!!!!! As someone who has done his apprenticeship soldering microphone cables I laughed but apparently they are selling like hot cakes....... or should I say like hot fishplates!

 

 

 

 

I have never really understood this approach and think it to be another one of those cop outs and pointless products (in the same pile as track pins and track rubbers) Perhaps the only surprise is that they are not produced as part of the Peco range.

 

The electrical connection to the track is the most important connection (without it trains will not move). So the connection to the rail should have electrical integrity. So what is the point of putting it on the rather flimsy mechanical slider that is the fishplate which is intended to move and become increasingly less solid as time goes by? Add to that such connections will generally be born out of poor wiring (in both DC and DCC) both of which should apply connection to the bus in all lengths of track. This is hardly one step better than those two pronged track clips of the trainset - designed to be regularly dismantled on the living room floor by our children.

 

Soldering is NOT difficult and is one of those simple skills to be learned for building model railways. It is no more dangerous than handling any other hot instrument like a frying pan. All it requires is a degree of attention to basic principles. Electrical soldering is the simplest as it does not require any additional fluxes or knowledge of the material soldered.

[Nile_Griffith]

Hello Kenton.

 

As much as I agree with you about the pre-wired fishplate product and the importance of creating and maintaining an electrical contact, what I would say about your last posting is this.

 

You personally may NOT find soldering difficult. I don't find soldering difficult (if there was a category for adventure or extreme soldering I would possibly be in like Flynn). However like a lot of skills or talents it is as much about confidence and aptitude for the task as it is owning a good soldering iron and appropriate tools. I'm assured by a surgeon who has just looked over my shoulder to read this that an emergency tracheotomy is a simple and straight forward application, assuming of course you have a good scalpel a suitable diameter of tube and approach the procedure with the correct knowledge and confidence.... I think I know which one I will stick with.

 

I posted the information about the fish plates to present an option. Having taught quite a few people to solder for electrical and electronic purposes. I can confidently say that no matter how willing or enthusiastic a person is, there will always be those, who don't quite get it right or just really don't have the confidence. Judging by your statement. you seem to suggest that anyone who is unable to learn such a task should in some way have their modelling (which in other area's might be described as marvellous) considered anything less than toy town.

 

If I extrapolate your comments further then perhaps we should all be buying our models in the raw and unpainted. After all painting is just another practical task and requires nothing more than the correct materials, tools, knowledge and practice to achieve excellent results.

 

Although the OP asks for guidance in how to solder proficiently. I think it's wise to remember that there are other members who will read these postings with the same interest and looking for answers to their own questions. They may not submit a reply but are genuinely looking for answers to their own modelling needs. I'm not entirely sure covert elitism is a productive element to the forum as a whole.

[Nile_Griffith]

Electrical soldering is the simplest as it does not require any additional fluxes or knowledge of the material soldered.

 

 

Electrical soldering and with that I'l include basic electronics. Does require the person to have an understanding of the material and more importantly the component he is soldering to.

[buffalo]

It is, perhaps, easier to find opportunities to learn and practice soldering than tracheotomy

 

Nick

[Nile_Griffith]

All for people learning Buffalo. Thats what life's all about.

 

Just not very big on people being made to feel that because they can not accomplish a certain skill or level of proficiency despite honest intentions or hopes. That there should be some element of exclusion involved.

[Nile_Griffith]

Hello Mickey.

 

In your post you use the words "things I must learn to do properly".

 

 

Now as I see it and last time I looked. This was supposed to be a hobby. So therefore the choice within any pastime is to calculate on personal level what exactly it is you are looking for from it based against investment, time etc etc etc. Now I am not advocating that people shouldn't try to learn new skills or even that if things go wrong they should give up at the first hurdle. But a fact of life is that we all do not have the same aptitudes or skill sets. I think somewhere it's described as individuality.

 

The electrical connections to a layout are indeed of prime importance......... Top of the list.... no doubt. But what was put forward in the OP was how best to create a reliable soldered joint. My offering was by way of an alternative and certainly not a personal endorsement. However through my own experience (and when it comes to making up soldered contacts it's pretty extensive) I'm fully aware that it is a skill that for some, may not be fully achieved for a number of reasons. If I am going to put my hand up to an omission it's this. What I should have remarked upon in offering my suggestion of an alternative was to outline the deficiencies with pre-wired fishplates as compared to a correctly soldered joint.

 

Playing devils advocate a little on the whole soldered fishplate thing for a while though. For a person building a layout for the first time, who does not own a soldering iron and materials for soldering electrical connections and has no experience of making correct soldered joints. The fishplate idea makes a degree of sense.

 

The cost of a decent soldering iron and multicore solder would be around £30. Time taken practicing on bits of old metal and rails, maybe an hour or two. Allowing for an average 6' x 4' layout requiring maybe eight sets of "droppers" for connection to DC or DCC power busses. A soldering novice might screw up one length of straight piece of track, so call it a couple of quid. This off course assuming that none of their soldered contacts have dry joints (something novices don't always recognise) and that although tested with a continuity tester and showing as OK, there are no cracks or weaknesses which over time will render the soldered joint useless, a bit of a b*gger when your tracks all ballasted down etc etc.

 

So for someone who felt unsure or reluctant about soldering. Our £30 would buy a bag of pre-wired fishplates to deal with the eight drops and instead of time spent practising a process they didn't feel comfortable or confident with they would be getting on with enjoying the construction of their layout (remember the hobby thing). Importantly armed with the knowledge of the fishplates inherent weaknesses, should a continuity problem occur they at least know where to look first, possibly having something more accessible than a soldered joint hidden under ballast. The resulting first fix potentially being nothing more than a quick "squeeze"with a pair long nose pliers.

 

Once again I am not suggesting that the skill of soldering should be just bypassed. But there will always be those who find that a particular skill evades them and that rather than them being disheartened or feeling frustrated. That there are potential options available to them. It's important that the pro's and con's of those options are made known. But as i said previously I have little patience for an air of modelling elitism that seems to pervade some of these topics at times.

[steviesparx]

Well, what I would say is that soldering is a knack which requires a little bit of practice - as with many things, the right equipment also makes a difference....that said, some of the soldering on Hornby's Chinese productions leaves much to be desired, and these guys are presumably soldering everyday...

First step is a clean -a fibreglass pen is good...then I give a little rub of a flux pen ( Mine is Electrolube courtesy CPC/RS ) - these flux pens are clean and easy to use, and don't really need cleaning off afterwards as did traditional, more corrosive flux. If you're soldering a wire, 'tin' the wire first with a coating of solder - the joint will take easier when the wire itself already has a coating of solder.

With practice ( the 'knack' ) you'll find what works, and you'll get a feel for what is a good joint...

[smokebox]

Perhaps there's someone who could have a soldering "workshop" for beginners as part of their exhibition. I know there are people who do kit building and track building on the exhibition circuit so a small "add-on" to this shouldn't be too difficult.

[steviesparx]

I still maintain the view that if you only learn to do one thing properly to create a model railway that actually works, that one thing is to be able to solder wires together. Thats not some sort of elitist ideal - Its one of the very fundamentals of making the thing go, and continue to do so thereafter ....

 

Well, I guess you are entitled to your opinion....

What you really need to make things work is money, then you can buy services of others, or ready soldered fishplates with droppers...

As a boy my Inter-City 125 ran for years, round and around without me ever having to solder anything. And I loved every minute of it.

Without being too dramatic, not being able to solder may not spoil your modelling enjoyment, but being able to solder will probably enhance your modelling enjoyment, and I would encourage the uninitiated to at least have a good try...

[Kenton]

Go to sleep and wake up to find I'm an elitist That's a turn up for the books ... you will be calling me a P4 modeller next

 

I'm sorry if it came over a bit that way - actually I'm not!

 

I have seen this question asked on here many times and I often provide the,, I hope, same response.

 

I have seen in clubs many "students" and a few "modeller experts" struggle with simple electrical soldering (Note: I am NOT talking about electronics soldering - like your DCC chips or even motor leads; I'm not talking about kit building either; just simple wire to switch, wire to tag block, or as in this question, wire to rail.) Nearly every case of someone struggling it is because they have some idea in their head that it should be difficult; or they are simply not following the basic and very important rules.

 

Typical problems:

A soldering iron with a dull and dirty tip. It should be bright and on first switching on it should be tinned. This tin layer should be maintained regularly by adding more solder to the tip. Excess solder can be removed by flicking it off (great care) or more safely on one of these tip cleaners that contain a wire gauze. Some advocate a wet sponge but I wouldn't as they tend to deposit more crud than they remove especially with a very hot iron.

Which brings me onto the next problem - you will not solder anything with a cold iron. As soon as you place the tip of a heated iron onto another metal surface heat is transferred and the iron cools. If the power of the iron is high enough it will heat up again so fast you will not notice the difference. Most cheap low wattage irons are a waste of time. You need an iron of about 25W to do anything.

Next up is the flux: The job of flux is to provide the environment for the solder to flow. The liquid and paste fluxes are corrosive and also help with a chemical cleaning of the surfaces. BUT DO NOT USE these for electrical soldering. Stick with the rosin flux that is in multicore.

So we are using a non-corrosive flux - so there is nothing to chemically clean the surfaces. This is why they must be mechanically clean.

Solder and tinning - why tin? It is easier to tin a wire newly stripped of plastic sheath than to solder dry to another piece of metal. The main reason is that you only have 2 hands. But also joining two tinned components requires a lot less heat. Oh, and stay away from the lead free solder - it is not that it cannot be used it is just harder to use.

 

BTW a clue to a dry joint is that it is dull. That doesn't mean you cannot create a shiny dry joint but almost all dull joints are dry joints. The solder has been moved during cooling or cooled too quick.

 

Back to those soldered fishplates, I know it was only a suggestion for a wider audience and not an answer to OP, but I still think they are absolutely the wrong way to go. They may work initially but they will deteriorate with time. I just think they are absolutely the wrong answer and would rather see correct wiring even with Hornby track power clips.

 

I agree that a good idea might be to have a demo stand at a model show just concentrating on electrical soldering. But it has to be less of a demo and more of a hands on encouragement. The problem as always with demos is that they show how to do it from the view of someone proficient (even professional) but rarely have that "here you try". We all learn by doing things not by just watching how it is done. But will those uncertain volunteer to be seen having a go in such a public arena?

[steviesparx]

Look forward to seeing your stand at Warley, Kenton.....!

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

I went the soldered fishplate route about three years ago. All is well so far. I have seen no movement whatever in my stable temperature flat. All the gaps are exactly as they were when I laid the track.

 

I made all my own soldered fishplates by drilling them and soldering colour coded wires through the holes.

 

The decision was based on not wanting to solder to track in situ with hugely expensive and difficult to obtain track items. I was using flexi track and the lengths were altering and sleepers were being fed onto track as I was laying it plus I was using foam underlay that melted and disappeared if heat was put anywhere near it.

 

For me, the neatness that I achieved by this method and the subsequent lack of any problems has more than justified the extra work that making my own soldered fishplates has brought about. Remember that once you have soldered a wire to the rail you cannot remove or install sleepers.

 

I think the 'fishplates wear out and/or stop conducting' is an urban myth for the majority unless you 1) install in a damp environment with wide temperature variations or 2) use Settrack and take it up when you finish playing trains.

[Donw]

Soldering is a useful skill and I think it would be worth teaching it in school but its not essential. These days you get connectors where you do not even strip the wire. With those and srew type terminal bloks the only bit left is connecting to the rail. Seeing as many layouts run with some reliance on the fishplates for connections. Useually because they cannot be bother with droppers to each piece of rail but they do work most of the time. It would be interesting to compare the frequency of failures of connections for fishplates and poorly made joints. Of course you never see anyone needing to resolder joints to trackwork at an exhibition do you?

You may take the view that the fishplates look nothing like the real ones (as I do ) and also the view that learning to solder has so many uses it is worth the trouble to aquire, but let us not forget in these less practical days the model layout may come first and the desire to learn to solder come later. We should be putting begineers off.

Don

[Kenton]

Look forward to seeing your stand at Warley, Kenton.....!

 

 

Don't go to Warley. Too far, Too crowded, Too commercial, Drains the life out of other shows.

 

Anyway I think this type of demonstration/hands on needs to be at a quieter, more local show. I also think there will be few volunteering themselves as unable to solder.

 

Oh, and although I am lambasting the fishplate power feeds, I have been known to use the technique on Code 55 rail especially on pointwork. This was mainly for the reasons given above that the potential for damaging the points was so much greater. However, I of course soldered my own

 

...and my experience has been that rails expand and contract with UK climate sufficient to loosen the fishplates. But then my layouts are in a garage that goes sub-zero in winter to high summer cooker temperatures (well normal summers - not this year's)

[buffalo]

...We should be putting begineers off.

I do hope there is a missing "not" there

 

I agree, but once beyond that initial beginner (is 'begineer' some form of apprentice engineer?) stage, then we should be encouraging them to widen their skills, or even to exploit ones they might have acquired elsewhere.

 

Nick