Clutton Colliery in Somerset PO Wagons

[Wheeltapper]

Seeing as there are a few people on this forum with more than a passing interest in the Bristol and North Somerset Railway I just wondered if anyone could tell me what colours were the Private Owner wagons as used by Clutton Colliery ?

[Tim V]

Which one?

 

Greyfield, Frys Bottom or Burchells?

 

Or do you mean the Earl of Warwick's Clutton Collieries?

[Wheeltapper]

The wagons to which I refer are some that I have seen in general views of coal trains and are lettered Clutton Collieries in at least two different styles so I presume those are from the Earl of Warwick Collieries as the individual ones like Greyfield and Frys Bottom would have had the pit name on them if they indeed had specific wagons.

 

So thats a secondary question - I am fairly sure I have seen somewhere a picture of a Greyfield Colliery Wagon but I dont know about Frys Bottom - did they have their own ?

[Wheeltapper]

If it helps to identify the wagons to which I refer , its not the picture I was thinking of but there are two Clutton Collieries wagons in a photograph of the pithead buildings at Greyfield Colliery in Mike Vincents book "Through Countryside and Coalfield".

 

The picture I was mainly thinking about shows a train of wagons being hauled by a small locomotive so it may also have been taken at Greyfield and in that train are several Clutton Collieries wagons . I just cannot remember where the picture has been published but it may come to me in time.

[wagonman]

Though the Clutton pits were nominally operated by separate companies I've not found any evidence of wagons operated by these companies. Frys Bottom closed in 1895, Greyfield in 1911 and the new drift at Burchells was earmarked for closure in 1921 so this is all rather too early for any of the surviving eye-witness accounts. The 'Clutton' wagons operated by the Warwick Estate always photographed in a dark tone so may well have been black. We lack a good close up photo to enable more precise analysis. There were two distinct lettering styles, that used on the two wagons in the photo of "Daisy" taken at Greyfield (published in Down & Warrington) was the earlier sort. Repairs seem to have carried out at Clutton on a site which later became the Bristol & Clutton Wagon Co.

 

I am planning a trawl through the Warwick Estate papers in the near future though I doubt I'll find a copy of any wagon contracts, I believe there is a ledger covering some wagon transactions.

[Wheeltapper]

Thank you for that information . It was the picture in History of the Somerset Coalfield by Down and Warrington of which I was thinking.

 

In the other book there are two photographs of Clutton wagons , one as I said showing three possibly four Clutton wagons at the pithead each with the larger style later lettering and another picture of one of the Greyfield Colliery locomotives - probably Daisy in which just the left hand end of a side of a wagon can be seen with CL showing so I am fairly sure its a Clutton wagon . On the left of the C are two small signwritten "wings" forming an arrow shape beneath which it says Greyfield Colliery .

 

So in the absence of further information would White lettering on a Black Background be a reasonable assumption ?

 

I make the lettering to be:

 

The Earl of Warwicks Collieries

 

C L U T T O N

 

Gas House Steam

 

 

533 Coals Load 8 Tons

 

 

I am unsure about the lettering in the bottom right hand corner and "Load 8 Tons" may be wrong so if anyone can confirm that it would be a great help . Also on the bottom left hand corner is some more lettering below the wagon number - it may be the Tare Weight but confirmation of that would also be useful.

[wagonman]

Thank you for that information . It was the picture in History of the Somerset Coalfield by Down and Warrington of which I was thinking.

 

 

In the other book there are two photographs of Clutton wagons , one as I said showing three possibly four Clutton wagons at the pithead each with the larger style later lettering and another picture of one of the Greyfield Colliery locomotives - probably Daisy in which just the left hand end of a side of a wagon can be seen with CL showing so I am fairly sure its a Clutton wagon . On the left of the C are two small signwritten "wings" forming an arrow shape beneath which it says Greyfield Colliery .

 

So in the absence of further information would White lettering on a Black Background be a reasonable assumption ?

 

I make the lettering to be:

 

The Earl of Warwicks Collieries

 

C L U T T O N

 

Gas House Steam

 

 

533 Coals Load 8 Tons

 

 

I am unsure about the lettering in the bottom right hand corner and "Load 8 Tons" may be wrong so if anyone can confirm that it would be a great help . Also on the bottom left hand corner is some more lettering below the wagon number - it may be the Tare Weight but confirmation of that would also be useful.

 

 

I would agree with your reading of the photos, and yes white lettering on black is as good a guess as any (and better than most). I'm trying to get hold of an original print of the photo from Mike Vincent but until then I cannot really add very much. Number 533 may have been a 10 ton wagon as later wagons of that general size usually were (yes I know it depends more on things like journal size etc) and the other writing would almost certainly been the tare weight. The details I have at the moment are mostly for the early acquisitions of the late 1870s and early 1880s. They seem to have had a rolling stock replacement fund as later accounts include disposals as well as purchases. Hopefully I'll know more in a month or so.

 

What period are you modelling?

[Wheeltapper]

Thanks thats useful.

 

Do you have any Tare weight figures for the earlier wagons ?

 

The period will probably be around 1900 give or take a couple of decades either way - really depends how much information I find.

[wagonman]

The only tares I have are for the very early batch of half a dozen (nos 39-54 in increments of 3) built by the Radstock Wagon Co in 1880. These were quite small wagons with sides a mere 2' 9" high and typically tared at 4-8-0. Later, post 1887, wagons with six planks sides and a 10-ton load -- possibly like no 533 -- would have had tare weights in the region of 5-14-0.

 

A date of 1900 ±20 years would encompass pretty much the entire lifespan of the Clutton collieries as rail connected businesses! And why not...

[bbishop]

Guys,

 

I'm no expert on the Somerset coalfield, but were there issues with colliery equipment that limited the height of coal wagons?

 

Bill

[Wheeltapper]

Guys,

 

I'm no expert on the Somerset coalfield, but were there issues with colliery equipment that limited the height of coal wagons?

 

Bill

 

None nationwide that I am aware of as some of the largest railway wagons (in number of planks) were used . Certain collieries may have had a local restriction on height .

The only definite one I know about did not affect wagons but did affect locomotives and that was an old Tramway bridge at Radstock known locally as "Marble Arch" which was converted to standard gauge use and gave access to industrial premises including a wagon works .This was to tight a fit for the average locomotive and the reason that the S & D Sentinel locomotives and the L & Y Pugs were used in later years as they were small enough to fit through the bridge hole.

[Wheeltapper]

The only tares I have are for the very early batch of half a dozen (nos 39-54 in increments of 3) built by the Radstock Wagon Co in 1880. These were quite small wagons with sides a mere 2' 9" high and typically tared at 4-8-0. Later, post 1887, wagons with six planks sides and a 10-ton load -- possibly like no 533 -- would have had tare weights in the region of 5-14-0.

 

A date of 1900 ±20 years would encompass pretty much the entire lifespan of the Clutton collieries as rail connected businesses! And why not...

 

 

There are any number of reasons why their first wagons may have been on the small side.Just thinking aloud really I came up with the following possibilities which is all supposition and not based on fact.

 

Tradition - The colliery owners would be used to small wagons in view of the extensive use of tramways in the Somerset Coalfield.

 

Trackwork - There was a long history of poor quality track in the area - take the Clandown Locomotive saga as a typical example so weight of wagons on track may have been an issue.

 

Customer Requirements - Not that much earlier historically deliveries had been by packhorse or horse and cart so were the customers only geared to order in smallish quantities or were the first railway wagon specifications based on loads that a cart would take.

 

Motive power - Horses were used quite extensively in the coalfield for wagon movement again harking back to the days of the Radstock Tramway and in many instances the steam locomotives used at collieries were not capable of moving very heavy loads so was a smaller wagon needed for ease of movement.

 

Cost and Materials used in wagon construction are also possible issues but I would rule that out fairly quickly as the majority of construction cost would be the underframe , wheels and ironwork and a smaller size body wagon would not I would have thought been significantly cheaper to build.

 

The size of 2 ft 9 inch high sides is interesting as it does not seem to equate to any normal size number of planks that were in common use suggesting that special planks would have to be prepared which again suggests there was a particular reason.

 

Any thoughts

[wagonman]

The use of small wagons was not confined to the Somerset coalfield by any means though the matter of screen height at collieries became an issue when the GWR tried to introduce large 20 ton steel wagons in the C20. Generally collieries liked to keep the 'drop' into the wagon as small as possible to avoid breakage of the coal.

 

Size was related to capacity (obviously) and early wagons were typically rated at 6 or 7 tons. Improvements in technology, basically larger bearing journals, meant capacity could increase and builders settled on 8 tons and later 10, 12 and even 15 tons. That said a wagon like the early Clutton vehicles which had internal measurements 14' 6" x 6' 11" x 2' 9" would be hard pressed to safely hold more than about 7 tons! Wagons built later tended to have increasingly high sides -- 3' became the general minimum from the early '80s; by 1890 3' 8" was normal for a 10 ton wagon and 4' was not unheard of.

 

Plank sizes in the 1870/80s were frequently wider than in later years: these wagons could have had 3x 11" planks, or 3x 8" plus 1x 9" (more likely); the ends would probably have been a few inches higher than the sides which would have helped to increase capacity. Remember that before 1887 there were no officially recommended standards or designs for these wagons.

 

These old dumb buffer wagons are fascinating as there seem to have been hardly two the same which gives plenty of scope for scratchbuilding models...

[Wheeltapper]

In the Warrington & Down Picture 533 looks as though it may be a 6 Plank and the one next to it slightly smaller and possibly a 5 Plank so I have plenty of variety to choose from with 3 , 4 , 5 and 6 plank wagons possibly in use at the same time.

[wagonman]

Just a quick update to say that the book, Private Owner Wagons of Somerset, will be published on 3 May. I hope.

http://www.lightmoor.co.uk/view_book.php?ref=L9877