2mm couplings, options, choices and recommendations

[Gingerbread]

Sorry to be a pedant but you can't copyright an idea/design. You can patent or apply for design rights, but copyright is different. Copyright would only apply to the artwork used in the etch design and even then would be pretty limited.

True in theory, but perhaps not so true in practice.

 

See the recent case discussed here. As far as I can see, this effectively allows a copyright on what I would have regarded as a design concept (in this case, the concept of taking a photograph of a red London bus with the Houses of Parliament in the background, then "fading" the rest of the picture to grey).

 

David

[queensquare]

I have seen the following address quoted - I don't know if it is correct and/or still valid:

 

David, this is Nick Dearnley's home address, might be an idea to remove this from a public forum. He is the D of DG but no longer sells couplings - they are now sold by Wizard models amongst others. Putting peoples adresses up on a public forum is not a good idea without their knowledge.

 

Jerry

Edited March 18, 2012 by queensquare

[Gingerbread]

David, this is Nick Dearnley's home address, might be an idea to remove this from a public forum. He is the D of DG but no longer sells couplings - they are now sold by Wizard models amongst others. Putting peoples adresses up on a public forum is not a good idea without their knowledge.

Will do.

 

I came across it in two separate (and apparently independent) places, but both appeared to be relatively old, which is why I raised the questions about the validity. As you have confirmed that it is no longer valid I will replace it by a "Wizard" reference.

 

David

[CF MRC]

Quite honestly, the concept of this type of coupling goes back more than 25 years, to at least Denys Brownlee's plastic moulded version, which he then made into the BB etched design with Derek Bunting. Any design rights would have long gone: if they were ever enforceable.

 

However, this is a pleasant hobby and it is probably not best to copy other peoples commercial material, other than for personal use.

 

Tim

[queensquare]

I doubt there is any copywright/design/patent to be pinched anyway.

John Greenwood, the G of DG, started making these in plastic, injecting old sprues into a mould via a hole drilled in an old soldering iron. John pinched/adapted the design from one that Denys Brownlee had come up with which in turn was an adaption of one of the continental commercial couplings (I hope you're following this at the back!).

Nick D asked John to make him some. John suggested that as Nick was at the time experimenting with etching in his kitchen sink that he would draw up the artwork for Nick to etch - the DG coupling was born.

Who, if anyone, owns the design/patent out of that is anyones guess. I have no legal knowledge but would guess that nobody does - the only bit you might be able to copyright is the name, which Wizard models now owns.

 

Jerry

[Revolution Ben]

Hello Jerry,

 

Thanks for the background - very interesting. And suggesting that the original pioneer of these couplers favoured them moulded in plastic.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[queensquare]

Hello Jerry,

 

Thanks for the background - very interesting. And suggesting that the original pioneer of these couplers favoured them moulded in plastic.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

Hi Ben

Yes, but Denys/John/Nick et el all quickly abandoned moulded plastic in favour of metal. Regarding your other point about NEM pockets, I tend to get rid of the pocket as well when converting RTR stock to DGs as I find the big black box hanging down below the buffer beam unsightly. The couplings are designed to be screwed/glued/soldered to the underside of the chassis, flush with the bottom of the buffer beam.

 

Jerry

[Gingerbread]

In principle, the name "D G Couplings" should be too short to be copyrighted, and should only be trademarkable (if such a word exists) instead. However, there are probably exceptions to that rule too...

 

Trademarks/patents/designs need to be registered, and have relatively short lives (with an option to renew in the case of trademarks). Copyrights don't need to be registered, and have ridiculously long lives (typically until 70 years after the death of the creator).

 

Whatever the legal situation, I would tend to agree with Tim's comment - it looks like a bad idea to copy somebody else's material without clearing it with them first.

 

David

[2mm Andy]

Can I try and clarify things here. The photo that Julia posted was of a private test etch to see if it was possible to design a NEM mounted coupling. It was posted in the spirit of trying to be helpful following Ben's question asking if anyone was looking at NEM mounts. There is no intention at this stage to produce any more, sell or market them in any way shape or form. If the design works, then it may be possible to seek agreement from the originators and the current makers of the original type of DG couplings to make these available in some way.

 

Andy

[Donw]

I have a feeling that any claim to the design principles would be hard to establish as a lot of the principles are shared with other designs ( loops, buffing plates, etc) however the artwork would definately be subject to copyright. If I were to take my etches obtained 30 years ago from Nick and copy them even in part I would be in breach of copyright unless I had permission. However if I was to redraw the couplings and produce my own artwork it would be a different matter. As I see if Missy is doing something for her own benefit there is unlikely to be any issue. The issue only becomes serious when others are being supplied. However if sales were restricted to members only it might be easier. We could approach current suppliers to see if they would produce the alternative design. Indeed they may be interested in making it available to others possibly in other scales. Certainly an alternative coupling that could fit into NEM sockets could be of interest to N gaugers.

Don

[bcnPete]

I tend to get rid of the pocket as well when converting RTR stock to DGs as I find the big black box hanging down below the buffer beam unsightly.

 

I'm with you on this Jerry.

 

Once my N rolling stock has been rewheeled to 2FS standards and DG's applied, I have little incentive to convert it back again...but that said, I can appreciate that there may be others who may wish to do so or perhaps use DG's as an alternative to the rapido on N rolling stock...

[Revolution Ben]

Hi Ben

Yes, but Denys/John/Nick et el all quickly abandoned moulded plastic in favour of metal. Regarding your other point about NEM pockets, I tend to get rid of the pocket as well when converting RTR stock to DGs as I find the big black box hanging down below the buffer beam unsightly. The couplings are designed to be screwed/glued/soldered to the underside of the chassis, flush with the bottom of the buffer beam.

 

Jerry

 

Hello Jerry,

 

I agree that the coupler pocket looks unsightly but there is a significant body of enthusiasts who like to keep their models in such a condition that, if they wish, they can revert them to their as-bought condition. Or who may wish to use them on different layouts, with different standards. The joy of the NEM system is that it easily allows such flexibility and inter-operability.

 

Out of interest, do you know why they abandoned plastic in favour of metal? Was it for engineering/appearance reasons, or down to cost/convenience?

 

But even if sticking with metal, I feel that there has been a lack of any kind of product development. For example, you mention that they are designed to be screwed to the underside of the wagons - which seems a good way of fixing them - so why is there not a hole etched in the baseplate suitable for, say, a 12BA bolt or similar? I know the hole can be drilled but having it pre-etched would be a whole (groan!) lot easier and save potentially distorting the plate when drilling.

 

Also, with regard to Missy's etch, since she is not offering it for sale, and has generated the artwork herself, I do not see any patent violations or copyright issues at this stage.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[queensquare]

Hello Jerry,

 

I agree that the coupler pocket looks unsightly but there is a significant body of enthusiasts who like to keep their models in such a condition that, if they wish, they can revert them to their as-bought condition. Or who may wish to use them on different layouts, with different standards. The joy of the NEM system is that it easily allows such flexibility and inter-operability.

 

Out of interest, do you know why they abandoned plastic in favour of metal? Was it for engineering/appearance reasons, or down to cost/convenience?

 

But even if sticking with metal, I feel that there has been a lack of any kind of product development. For example, you mention that they are designed to be screwed to the underside of the wagons - which seems a good way of fixing them - so why is there not a hole etched in the baseplate suitable for, say, a 12BA bolt or similar? I know the hole can be drilled but having it pre-etched would be a whole (groan!) lot easier and save potentially distorting the plate when drilling.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

Hi Ben,

on your first point, changing the wheels and couplings is almost always just the starting point in the work I do on a wagon so the odds of the conversion being reversable are slim. I can see that for some this would be desirable but I think thats something for the N gauge society to look at.

 

As for changing to metal for DG/BB coupling I think it is just better suited to the job than plastic.

 

I agree that etching a hole in the base plate to aid bolting the coupling to the wagon would indeed be a good idea but drilling a hole is not difficult.

 

regards Jerry

[Black Sheep]

with regards to fitting couplings to coaching stock / bogie waggons do you attach the DG to the underside of the coache's buffer beam, or somehow to the bogie?

[Nigelcliffe]

I have a feeling that any claim to the design principles would be hard to establish as a lot of the principles are shared with other designs ( loops, buffing plates, etc) however the artwork would definately be subject to copyright. If I were to take my etches obtained 30 years ago from Nick and copy them even in part I would be in breach of copyright unless I had permission. However if I was to redraw the couplings and produce my own artwork it would be a different matter.

 

There is no copyright possible of an idea or mechanism, so the principles of operation are not covered by copyright law. They could be covered by patent, but that would not be possible once the invention has been disclosed to the world.

 

Copyright would not be breached if the same item were drawn afresh. As someone is not likely to produce an etch drawing by scanning an old etch, a breach of copyright is not likely to occur. In the event of a breach of copyright, the next issue is to show the amount of financial loss, which in very rough terms is the lost sales. But as a breach is unlikely to have occured, then no case will occur.

 

 

Its a different matter about politeness: most designers of model gubbins I've met like to hear about improvements or enhancements. So one can gain permission, information, friendly relationships and a constructive environment by consulting people.

 

 

- Nigel

[CF MRC]

I had Denys's plastic version of the coupling on my Kirtley back tank in the 1980's. The problem was that, because of sticktion, the flapper was not as free in plastic as it could be in metal, as it also had negligible weight. It wasn't really compatible with the later etched versions either.

 

Tim

[Pixie]

Just slipping my moderator hat on briefly, there seems to be some tension in a few posts on this page. Can I ask that all posts are kept constructive and friendly please? At present, Julia's test etches appear to be a technical exercise to see if the idea is workable. I'm sure that if they reach the stage of being turned into a saleable product then the correct boxes will have to be ticked regarding copyrights and patents to avoid any of the difficulties that Chris has described.

 

Pix

[Izzy]

with regards to fitting couplings to coaching stock / bogie waggons do you attach the DG to the underside of the coache's buffer beam, or somehow to the bogie?

 

 

As I have been starting from scratch I have fitted mine to the top of the coach bogie frame, the only way really to get around curved trackwork, and the same for my diesels. I used this as the default height setting measument for all my stock, which is somewhat lower than normal under the bufferbeam level others seem to use, so they wouldn't neccesarily couple with other peoples stock.

 

I have also discovered that using steel for the loops doesn't work too well if you want/need loops on both ends of your stock. The reason is quite simple. After the first use they become magnatised and tend to 'stick' to each other rather than riding up over each other on contact. So I now make the loops out of the phosphor bronze wire that is supplied. These are in one piece, bent so the leg goes between the pivots. A twist of soft iron wire is put on the end of the leg to attract the magnet.

 

 

Izzy

[Gingerbread]

In an attempt to drag the discussion back on topic, I would like to address this question, which apparently slipped through unnoticed:

with regards to fitting couplings to coaching stock / bogie waggons do you attach the DG to the underside of the coache's buffer beam, or somehow to the bogie?

 

I haven't yet finished any of my bogie stock, but am proposing to attach the DG couplings to the bogies. I don't think it would make a lot of difference with large radius curves, but with smaller radius presumably the couplings would work better attached to bogies than to buffer beams.

 

What do others advise?

 

David

[Nig H]

Hi,

 

I have fitted DGs to the bogies of about 40 coaches. Araldited to plastic bogies, and soldered to metal frame bogies. As I am starting to think of fixed rake formations, I am now making my own non-uncoupleable couplings bent up from 10 thou steel wire, with a loop on one bogie connecting to a hook on the bogie of the adjacent coach.

 

Regards,

 

Nigel

[richbrummitt]

They could be covered by patent, but that would not be possible once the invention has been disclosed to the world.

 

Not withstanding the patent would have had a maximum life of 20 years.

[Black Sheep]

Hi,

 

I have fitted DGs to the bogies of about 40 coaches. Araldited to plastic bogies, and soldered to metal frame bogies. As I am starting to think of fixed rake formations, I am now making my own non-uncoupleable couplings bent up from 10 thou steel wire, with a loop on one bogie connecting to a hook on the bogie of the adjacent coach.

 

Regards,

 

Nigel

 

two pieces of half round plastic strip sat on top of the other flat side to flat side, one attached to each coach with a track pin in a hole seems to look right for multiple units that would have had a drawbar instead of a traditional coupling

 

I believe the creator of Frankland did this for his Southern EMU's

[Gingerbread]

I find it easier to bend the dropper before soldering. Haven't tried the all-one-piece method.

 

David

[IanLister]

Hi. I tried the steel loop method and couldn't get the loops to sit flat enough because of the way I bent the dropper bit over the end of the loop...presumably there's a better way of doing it. I wasn't bothered because I find the phosphor bronze loop/steel dropper easy enough to do; I put the loop in the vice, prefold the dropper before soldering it to the loop, and leave the tail 2 or 3 cm longer until it's fitted to make it easier to hold, then cut it to length.

 

Ian.

[devondynosoar118]

I used the all in one loop method on my DG's as posted here:

http://www.minimumgauge.info/viewtopic.php?t=3318

I use a jig to set the height, make up 1 end of l delay latch and one of just the loop, without the latch, and got about 90% reliability first time out under exhibition conditions. I have fixed rakes of wagons and usually run them a fixed way round so don't need all loops. I wasn't very impressed with the look of production offerings which are probably ok for US or continental stock, I am sure they work very well but just a bit clunky to me.

None of my nickel plated steel beading wire, as fine as I could get, has become magnetised yet! If it does then I suppose I will replace the loops.

Nigel have you made your coil etches available yet as I would like to try your dcc uncoupler?

Edited May 16, 2012 by devondynosoar118