br2975 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Anybody else think the green on these wagons is just wrong ?? "BR Departmental Stock - a pictorial survey" by Dave Larkin, pub Bradford Barton contains a photo of DB992042 taken at Lostock Hall in 1969 and the caption makes mention of the livery as being green "not the usual olive green" . Brian R 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 "BR Departmental Stock - a pictorial survey" by Dave Larkin, pub Bradford Barton contains a photo of DB992042 taken at Lostock Hall in 1969 and the caption makes mention of the livery as being green "not the usual olive green" . Brian R Yup - Had a first look at one "in the plastic" at Bob's Aladdins Cave in Alton yesterday and I have to say my doubts about the green were put to rest - it's a lovely little model.................RTR Catfish, Gannet next please Hornby ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulG Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 There is a picture of a BR one in Don Rowland's B% Wagons 1st 1/2 million,............. Dave Larkin must have some amongst his vast collection, ...................... Craig Thank you for your help. I've a copy of Don's book, but must have missed the photo you mention and I'll have another look tonight. I have some of Dave Larkin's books, but I'll search out a few more at the Peterborough exhibition over the weekend. Time I respray the wagon I have and letter it, Hornby will have brought out a BR version - still for me the enjoyment of model railways is the research and building/converting models to fit a specific geographical area and timescale !! Regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
45568 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) Picked mine up today, like Chard I've gone for the N E one as it'll make a better basis for rusty black (and I didnt actually realise til a mate asked me, but Hornby have very peculiarly not done this model in a livery suitable for any part of the BR steam and transition period ). Well spotted Ian! Which if I recall was exactly the same as the Shark!! Get the "must 'ave first" brigade to start on resprays, then bring 'em out already done! Cynical? Moi?? Still tempted tho', as I believe transfers may be available in the near future for BR black. No names, no pack drill! Cheers, Peter C. Edited October 13, 2011 by 45568 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 CraigThank you for your help. I've a copy of Don's book, but must have missed the photo you mention and I'll have another look tonight. I have some of Dave Larkin's books, but I'll search out a few more at the Peterborough exhibition over the weekend. Regards Paul Np. I was suggesting his collection of negatives though more than any he may have got in books. I did check working wagons vol2 and there wasn't anything in there though there was another GW Herring view i'd forgotten about. I think quite a few of us ended up spraying an EWS Shark black.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Does anyone else think that the Trout is very similar to the BR version of the Herring only taller? I raise this because a BR Herring would be more suitable for my plans than a Trout and making the conversion would be an interesting bit of modelling - in theory! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Does anyone else think that the Trout is very similar to the BR version of the Herring only taller? I raise this because a BR Herring would be more suitable for my plans than a Trout and making the conversion would be an interesting bit of modelling - in theory! Chris Trout and Herrings are very very different - Cambrian have announced a kit of a GW P22 Herring for future release - the P22 were built in 1948 and the BR version (exactly the same to all intents and purposes) in 1951. The GW ones certainly lasted until the mid 1980's being VB fitted. But don't let me stop you - I'm certainly eyeing the Trout chassis up for a few bouts of surgery and create some "frankenstein" wagons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Trout and Herrings are very very different - Cambrian have announced a kit of a GW P22 Herring for future release - the P22 were built in 1948 and the BR version (exactly the same to all intents and purposes) in 1951. The GW ones certainly lasted until the mid 1980's being VB fitted. But don't let me stop you - I'm certainly eyeing the Trout chassis up for a few bouts of surgery and create some "frankenstein" wagons No, we have already had this discussion. There is a BR Herring which is very similar to a Trout see http://paulbartlett..../brrivetherring and if Chrisf asks Craigwelsh nicely he may be able to supply the reference to the drawing which the HMRS has. These names are no more descriptions of a particular wagon than a TOPS code is. The railway simply gave the same names to wagons that had a similar function - in this case capacity. There is also an even lower height version of the Hornby Trout - the Mackerel http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brmackerelzmv Paul Bartlett 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 I'm sure this must have been referenced before, but in the current scrum for all fishkind, the list here: http://www.ltsv.com/w_ref_codes_fish.php may prove useful. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Borrowed from the 03 runner wagon thread - taken at Tyne Yard in 1978 - the rake of Dogfish in the background has 4 Trout at its LH end - can,t make out if they're vacuum piped. http://www.flickr.com/photos/brianews/5734347576/in/set-72157626750438408/ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted October 14, 2011 Author Share Posted October 14, 2011 (edited) The response has gone now but I was going to ask if the WB and length of body on the Trout matched the Herring/Mackrel but clearly from Paul's data this wasn't the case. My apologies for sending the topic down an erroneous route of fishkinds.. Edited October 14, 2011 by craigwelsh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 The response has gone now but I was going to ask if the WB and length of body on the Trout matched the Herring/Mackrel but clearly from Paul's data this wasn't the case. Sorry, I cannot see a way of posting or attaching a table. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted October 14, 2011 Author Share Posted October 14, 2011 (edited) Sorry, I cannot see a way of posting or attaching a table. Paul I don't think Andy has enabled any code to do one. You'd have to upload a png picture of one or something. Btw your remark about the vac pipe upstand getting the in the way on the GWR Herring was curious as the operating method was the horizontal gas pipe on the sides below the solebar held from opening outward by two split pins. There was no operating method on the ends. Did you mean another type and i'd misread? The other regions must have hated that design as you couldn't control the flow of ballast, it would just dump out in one go! The only limitation was a stop to only open the doors so far that seemed to extend from the hopper door to a vertical position behind the solebar. Edited October 14, 2011 by craigwelsh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 compare ballast hoppers.pdf Trying for the third time. I won't attempt to open the file, as my computer is hanging with pdfs., Anyway the table attached is a comparison of the three BR ballast hopper wagons which share the Leeds Forge/Metro Cammell design of the body of steel plates supported by inverted U channel. As can be seen there are differences. The mention of vacuum pipes in another post is strange, the Trouts were unfitted, it is these others that were vacuum braked - and they had a drop down pipe. The GWR/BR Herring was the type with the apparently vulnerable upright vacuum pipe. Paul Bartlett 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iak Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Its a winner... Opens fine Paul - and thanks B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Paul, thanks very much for posting the table. It answers the questions which I had and I conclude that turning a Trout into a Herring would not be a sensible thing to do. Oh well, it was worth a thought ... Chris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Paul, thanks very much for posting the table. It answers the questions which I had and I conclude that turning a Trout into a Herring would not be a sensible thing to do. Oh well, it was worth a thought ... Chris If you want to do something "different" how about the slag conversion such as both of these http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lnerballasthop and http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/troutzfo/h12e49ec2#h12e49ec2 Paul Bartlett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 No, we have already had this discussion. There is a BR Herring which is very similar to a Trout see http://paulbartlett..../brrivetherring and if Chrisf asks Craigwelsh nicely he may be able to supply the reference to the drawing which the HMRS has. These names are no more descriptions of a particular wagon than a TOPS code is. The railway simply gave the same names to wagons that had a similar function - in this case capacity. There is also an even lower height version of the Hornby Trout - the Mackerel http://paulbartlett....m/brmackerelzmv Paul Bartlett Oops apologies to all - forgot about the second batch of Herring - I really shouldn't reply late at night Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 If you want to do something "different" how about the slag conversion such as both of these Must confess I did attempt such a double slag conversion. Maybe more than once. I've never since regained the moral high ground with my peers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stuartp Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Has anybody got knowledge of these ballast hoppers in terms of geographical spread. I am thinking Scotland (Perth or Abredeen) in 1960s Graham. I believe these were pretty common north of the border. Fans of the Sou'West will be pleased to know that (assuming my wagon ID is up to scratch) they appeared there too. In June 1966 Derek Cross didn't so much chase as amble gently alongside a couple of Crabs making a meal of a 13 wagon ballast special from Irvine to Stranraer. As far as I can make out, it consisted of 8 Dogfish, 2 Trout, 2 Mackerel and what looks like a BR-built Gannet. Livery appears to be rust with dusty bits. The brake van carries no side lamps so presumably the Trout were piped by this time. They're the same height as the adjacent Dogfish so I don't think they're misidentified Herrings. "On Glasgow & South Western Lines" p49 refers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 You're a star Stuart. I'd forgotten that pic, and it's a very timeous reminder on a number of grounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Have you ever heard that ensemble? Peter Handford was around in June '66 to record the occasion as the train slogged past Dalrymple Junction in the teeth of a stiff westerly and competition from a nearby road gang drilling the road surface mercilessly! The result can be heard on the Transacord 'Steam in Scotland' album. If ye can find it! Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 so presumably the Trout were piped by this time. Why? What evidence is there that any were ever piped? Paul Bartlett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stuartp Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 (edited) The result can be heard on the Transacord 'Steam in Scotland' album. Ta ! I presume that's the one with recordings taken at Bargany as well ? I'll add it to my usual round of Ebay searches ! Jamie - while you've got the book out check p14 - SR brake at Barassie on the end of a rake of Dogfish ! Why? What evidence is there that any were ever piped? Sorry, there should have been a bracketed question mark after that sentence. None, except that the brake van doesn't appear to be carrying side lamps, which would normally indicate a fully fitted train. However, with hindsight the Gannet would be unfitted too, the back end of the train is a bit murky in the photo so the lamps might well be there after all, and the pilot loco is carrying the light engine headcode so perhaps lamps generally aren't a good diagnostic feature ! Thanks for clarifying it Paul, and sorry for adding to the confusion. Edited October 14, 2011 by stuartp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Borrowed from the 03 runner wagon thread - taken at Tyne Yard in 1978 - the rake of Dogfish in the background has 4 Trout at its LH end - can,t make out if they're vacuum piped. http://www.flickr.co...57626750438408/ Nice find. I think the fact that they're grouped together, rather than mixed in randomly, suggests they're still unfitted and that they're at the rear of the rake - there dont seem to be any more wagons to the left. Why? What evidence is there that any were ever piped? Just Hornby's marketing, as far as I can see It would make sense though, given their operational similarity with Dogfish. On the subject of conversion to Herring/Mackerel, once the hopper itself was cut down, none of those dimensions would be more than a foot out and the wheelbase is only 6". To someone who (for instance) could accept the foot overlength of the Bachmann cattle van, it would still catch the character if done carefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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