mild alternative history - good idea / bad idea?

[Oscale]

 

If the railways had not been nationalised in 1948, they would have been run by 4 private companies whose overriding objective was to make a profit for their shareholders. In which case he wholesale closure of lines in the 60s might not have taken place, because many of the lines concerned would already have been closed in the 50s..

 

Very true, the companies may also have put their loco and rolling stock replacements out to contract as well. Thus enabling the closure, or at least downsizing, of their own workshops. The result, pretty much as it is today, being foreign looking stuff carrying British liveries.

 

Then there's the potential for closure from takeovers as well, (for instance) the LNER buying a controlling stake in the LMS, and shutting down routes which compete with their own, while unprofitable companies simply go bankrupt for lack of investment and close down completely as happened, and not just with small railroads either, in the bastion of free enterprise on the other side of the Atlantic from us.

 

As commuter passenger traffic can never be profitable, yet forms a large part of the UK passenger business it would still need government subsidies, would those subsidies have been forthcoming if the railways were not nationalised? They are still required today but only because it would be political suicide now for any government to pull the plug on the subsidies, if it did the fares would be sky high and the commuters themselves would be seeking alternate means of transport, even taxis would be cheaper in some cases.

 

The US railroads are, in the main, freight haulers and make money because of the distances involved. UK railways are short haul in comparison and road transport is usually the cheaper option - especially as the infrastructure for local delivery would have gone in the closures during the 1950s. In short the chances of us having anything like a comprehensive rail network had British Railways not come into being are remote. Therefore the OP's proposed branch line terminus would probably be a branch of Tesco or Asda instead and the trains replaced by (much much cheaper) buses.

[Ozexpatriate]

Don't overlook the fact that in the late 1940s the LNER seriously considered buying a fleet of passenger diesel locos from the USA for the ECML (and was only put off the deal, it is reputed, because Govt would not allow the dollars to be made available).

Mike do you know who were they considering? EMD, Alco?

 

The idea of the a Garter Blue EMD F series A+B set hauling The Coronation set is appealing in a very iconoclastic way. Think of the letters to The Times (particularly in the 1940s)! Perhaps a white trimmed Doncaster Green Alco PA hauling The Flying Scotsman? There's a little alternative reality for you.

[Ozexpatriate]

So, is this a plausible thing to do, or just daft?

I think that alternative histories are perfectly fine. They are entirely consistent with the first law of model railways (it's my trainset ...etc) and they establish that you know what you are about.

 

My only suggestion would be that if you ever write a potted history for your layout and post it on-line somewhere to accompany pictures of your layout (and on RMweb we hope you do) that you make it clear that this is not an authentic history.

 

I have seen very compelling on-line potted histories for branch lines that were never built or were time extended or back dated to suit the interests of a particular model. When well written they can be unintentionally misleading.

[The Stationmaster]

Mike do you know who were they considering? EMD, Alco?

 

The idea of the a Garter Blue EMD F series A+B set hauling The Coronation set is appealing in a very iconoclastic way. Think of the letters to The Times (particularly in the 1940s)! Perhaps a white trimmed Doncaster Green Alco PA hauling The Flying Scotsman? There's a little alternative reality for you.

I've seen mention of it in several places and in 'British Rail 1948-78 A Journey By Design' Brian Haresnape mentioned that in 1947 the LNER announced its intention to order 25 mainline diesel locos. I've seen a reference to EMD elsewhere - together with the bit about lack of dollars - but interestingly in his work about Thompson and Peppercorn Col. HCB Rogers quotes Freddie Harrison as stating that no diesel designs were carried out at Doncaster in that period. It would be interesting to see if Michael Bonavaia has mentioned it in any of his published stuff?

 

But I rather fancy the idea of a (shrunken) PA in Garter Blue

[bike2steam]

The writing was on the wall even before the war. As Black Sheep mentioned, cars were becoming more reliable and road haulage very competitive with railways. One advantage the road haulers had was that they were not "common carriers" and only carried the stuff they wanted to. Railways had to carry anything and frequently designed and built one-off wagons to cope with odd loads. Improvement in road infrastructure, particularly motorways, made road travel easier and cheaper. Fewer and fewer people needed to use the train for travel and goods. Eventual wholesale line closure was inevitable.

 

 

 

John

 

Before WW2 the road haulage industry was heavily subsidized by the then government, see 'Square Deal For Railways'.

[Oldddudders]

But I rather fancy the idea of a (shrunken) PA in Garter Blue

Not a million miles from this, maybe?

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lightning72/3968474980/

[The Stationmaster]

Not a million miles from this, maybe?

 

http://www.flickr.co...g72/3968474980/

Not quite the right colour but the arrangement suits the loco quite well I think

[Burkitt]

EMD locos for the LNER? I know EMD offered BR the NOHAB design, so maybe the LNER purchase would have been something similar? A while ago I did a photoshop of some LNER NOHABs based on the theory that if there had been no nationalisation, they would have accepted the offer from EMD that BR refused.

 

 

This image created by Paul Burkitt-Gray is based on a photo by Wikimedia user Ollivius distributed under the GNU free documentation license, and as such is released under the same license.

 

 

 

From http://www.flickr.com/photos/alternativerailways/4975342422/in/set-72157624920528614

 

 

Paul

[Armchair Modeller]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that EMD 2-stroke locos were quite sluggish - great for long hauls with few stops, but not for frequent stops and fast acceleration. One reason Alcos were popular long after the demise of the ALCO company was that their locos had faster acceleration, better for more undulating lines and fast starts. EMD were also very conservative on horsepower until around 1960.

 

If this is all true, then buying EMD for British conditions would have been unfortunate.

 

Some Alcos were built in Canada - their "World" loco was built there for several Commonwealth countries and under licence in Australia.

 

Don't dismiss the British too readily. Several firms were building for export, even when there was little or no domestic market. They didn't suddenly start up in the late 1950s.

[Oldddudders]

EMD were also very conservative on horsepower until around 1960.

 

If this is all true, then buying EMD for British conditions would have been unfortunate.

 

Some Alcos were built in Canada - their "World" loco was built there for several Commonwealth countries and under licence in Australia.

EMD didn't apply a turbocharger in any of their locomotoves until the late '50s, while Alco had been using them since 1937. The first Alco turbochargers were made for them by Brown Boveri in Switzerland. GM were only convinced of the wisdom of turbocharging their 567 prime mover by the extensive work on experimental locos built by Union Pacific, taking EMD GP9s and bolting on a turbo and associated kit. By the early 60s there was a horsepower race, with successive models upping the ante.

 

Montreal Locomotive Works produced its first loco, an S2 switcher, on 20th November 1948 (8 days after I was born!), although the prime movers were merely assembled there, with parts shipped in from the Alco works in Schenectady, until 1961. Confusingly, almost 6 months earlier, on 31st May 1948, at the Canadian International Trade Fair in Toronto, another S2 was exhibited which bore MLW plates - they actually being the only parts of the loco made in Canada, althoug it had been painted and lettered there.

[ForestPines]

It would be interesting to see if Michael Bonavaia has mentioned it in any of his published stuff?

 

Bonavia's History of the LNER vol. 3 states that he was himself the person who suggested that the ECML would be a good place for a "major trial of diesel traction", at the time when the government was pushing for the conversion of steam locos to oil burning. In July 1947, the LNER Board approved the purchase of 25 diesel locos to replace 32 Pacifics, at an estimated cost (including infrastructure) of £1.39 million, and that six suppliers were invited to tender - but, frustratingly, he doesn't mention which six suppliers! The tenders were received in November 1947, but the Board were unable to proceed; Bonavia says this was due to the timeline of Nationalisation and does not mention foreign exchange controls. The book includes the proposal discussed and approved by the board, as an appendix, but this also does not mention any builders by name, only that "enquiries [should] be made of all possible builders of Diesel-electric locomotives". The 25 locos purchased were to operate 8 daily KX-Edinburgh services (in each direction), plus one KX-Doncaster, one KX-Grantham and one Edinburgh-Aberdeen.

[Guest Phil]

I think some of the smaller Park Royal type railbuses etc would have proliferated, it all came back around with the Pacer anyway.

 

There's nothing wrong with what if BR hadn't happened as at the end of the day it's no different to a freelance location with BR stock really. As long as the reasoning behind it is thought through to give a logical progression then it's as valid as any novel that imagines a certain defining event didn't happen.

Using something like the Prototype Deltic as a class is logical as it was a private enterprise anyway and you only have to look at DP2, the Baby Deltic, Production Deltic, 37's and 40's to see where else that can go with a family heritage of look.

Take the Fell loco, GT3, even APT or any other unsuccessful prototypes and look at why it failed and put that right and you've got a valid reason. Look at the number of machines where the engine or transmission was the achilles heel and assume they had fitted a better x,y,z part and it may have been a success. Change the politician or CME who made the decision and again history wanders off down another track.

 

Absolutely fine Paul. I agree with all of that, provided no-one starts dragging the D95xx and the Clayton, and others into the debate. I have a bee in my bonnet about Claytons being binned because they were fire-prone heaps of junk. If they were, why did the Haematite company and latterly Ribble Cement "waste" so much time and effort on D8568.

 

The fact that so many D95xx enjoyed a long industrial career suggests it was the initial owner of the type that messed up in not using the assets it acquired properly. I'd suggest that the contemporary freight work which 55022 has been working recently is actually very well suited to a D95xx, and it is not difficult to imagine an ex Ashington D95xx covering the requirement in n alternative history.

[Pennine MC]

 

The 25 locos purchased were to operate 8 daily KX-Edinburgh services (in each direction), plus one KX-Doncaster, one KX-Grantham and one Edinburgh-Aberdeen.

 

And were to be named after Scottish and NE English regiments, and racehorses

 

25 is quite an interesting figure, given that Mr Fiennes originally wanted 23 Deltics...

 

 

The fact that so many D95xx enjoyed a long industrial career suggests it was the initial owner of the type that messed up in not using the assets it acquired properly.

 

Aye, only a literal handful were scrapped straight from BR service. Conventional wisdom is that the work these locos were designed for was drying up even as they were built; in reality, there probably was enough around for them, but only in scattered pockets, not within a close radius of the one or two places that it would have made sense to concentrate maintenance at. By selling relatively new and powerful locos, I suppose BR probably did avoid (to some extent) throwing good money after bad

[The Stationmaster]

 

And were to be named after Scottish and NE English regiments, and racehorses

25 is quite an interesting figure, given that Mr Fiennes originally wanted 23 Deltics...

Ah, now this is clearly an area where modellers would appreciate a bit of 'inside information'. Whenever something came along on BR the first rule was to look and see if anything like it had happened in the past so I suspect it might be not necessarily unlikely that some dusty old paperwork was dug out and dusted down as at least a starting point. But then on the other hand devising diagrams for one lot of diesels isn't that much different from doing the same for a different bunch of diesels working the same trains over the same route and saving a couple because they will be running faster.

 

Back in the 1980s I was involved in revising and updating the plans for certain funeral trains, I started by looking at the papers for King George VI's funeral train working (and I bet I know where who ever had done that job had looked because the papers included a note about the increase in cost of some purple material used for drapes compared with what it had cost at the time King George V's funeral ).

[Oldddudders]

Back in the 1980s I was involved in revising and updating the plans for certain funeral trains, I started by looking at the papers for King George VI's funeral train working (and I bet I know where who ever had done that job had looked because the papers included a note about the increase in cost of some purple material used for drapes compared with what it had cost at the time King George V's funeral ).

ISTR that Queen Victoria's last train ride, from Gosport to Victoria (where else?!), was marred by the fact that someone overlooked the need to reverse at Fareham, with a certain amount of difficulty ensuing at that junction station, although Her Maj was obviously past caring. I do hope that whosever plans you updated doesn't get caught in the same unearthly mess!

[The Stationmaster]

ISTR that Queen Victoria's last train ride, from Gosport to Victoria (where else?!), was marred by the fact that someone overlooked the need to reverse at Fareham, with a certain amount of difficulty ensuing at that junction station, although Her Maj was obviously past caring. I do hope that whosever plans you updated doesn't get caught in the same unearthly mess!

The lady who was very much in mind at the time lasted a good few years longer - and then went by road

[Oldddudders]

The lady who was very much in mind at the time lasted a good few years longer - and then went by road

As a Western Region sort of chap, I had half expected you to point out that my "last" train ride for Queen Vic was nothing of the sort - although I didn't actually know that I was wrong, if you see what I mean, just had a nagging doubt. Thanks to Google, I now know that on 4th Feb 1901 the late Queen arrived at Windsor & Eton Central, although I find the detail of the funeral on 2nd Feb and the tale of a collapsing gun carriage hard to fathom. So while LSWR and LBSCR got Her Maj back from Royal Osborne, the Great Western took her to her final rest.

[The Stationmaster]

As a Western Region sort of chap, I had half expected you to point out that my "last" train ride for Queen Vic was nothing of the sort - although I didn't actually know that I was wrong, if you see what I mean, just had a nagging doubt. Thanks to Google, I now know that on 4th Feb 1901 the late Queen arrived at Windsor & Eton Central, although I find the detail of the funeral on 2nd Feb and the tale of a collapsing gun carriage hard to fathom. So while LSWR and LBSCR got Her Maj back from Royal Osborne, the Great Western took her to her final rest.

Alas I never saw the Notice for that job. But many years ago there was a locked cupboard in a London Division office which contained a copy of every RT Notice ever issued affecting the London District/Division - including the very first one for a trip by Victoria down to Slough. The whole lot went to Kew I believe, and has probably never been heard of since? Sorry to veer off the OP folks.

[Ozexpatriate]

The whole lot went to Kew I believe, and has probably never been heard of since?

Presumably the RT Notices went into oblivion in Kew, and not HMVR and her royal entourage?

 

There's an alternative history for you!

[Catkins]

Following this thread, and with the off/on/off status of the class 60's -

What if the contract for the class 60's had been extended to make a class of say 350 - 400, as replacements for the 47's

I imagine that they would be able to supply a higher ETS rate, and haul longer trains, with less discomfort, and with the success of the Mk2f DBSO's, could a fleet of Mk3b Driving Brake vehicles have been built (possibly by CIE) for use on cross-country and other loco hauled trains?