TheLaird Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 I am interested in replicating the sleeper services out of St Pancras in the 55 to 62 period. Obviously because they ran at night, photo's seem quite rare. Does anyone have any details of the formation and carriage types used on these services? I believe there were three trains, Glasgow, Edinburgh and Leeds. I am hoping that MK1's were not used. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armchair Modeller Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 I misread this as sleepers of the wooden/track kind - you might get more response if you edit your title to make it clearer what you want Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLaird Posted November 25, 2011 Author Share Posted November 25, 2011 I misread this as sleepers of the wooden/track kind - you might get more response if you edit your title to make it clearer what you want Good point, but how do I change the title?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Pannier Tank Posted November 25, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 25, 2011 Good point, but how do I change the title?? Goto your Original Post and use the EDIT button. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLaird Posted November 25, 2011 Author Share Posted November 25, 2011 Goto your Original Post and use the EDIT button. Thankyou!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Johnstoun Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Beware - sleeping car services over the Midland main line are complicated. I suggest you try and get hold of a copy of the book Passenger Train Formations 1923-1983 - LMS LM Region by Clive S. Carter Published by Ian Allan in 1987. That has most of the information you need for your period. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark54 Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 From the summer 1960 Western Lines Passenger Train Marshalling book 21:00 St Pancras to Edinburgh Waverley basic working: BG, 3SK, 2CK, SLF, SLSTP, BG - all denoted as Mk1. There were other vans added and detached along the route. 21:15 St Pancras to Glasgow St Enoch basic working: BG, BSK, 3SK, CK, SLSTP, 2SLF, BG - all denoted as Mk1. There were also other vans added/detached. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLaird Posted November 27, 2011 Author Share Posted November 27, 2011 Thats brilliant Mark, thanks. What I am specifically interested in is the situation at Leeds where they reversed. Do you have the details at this stage of the journey and the return workings that all passed through in the early hours. Also the Leeds train that I believe left St Pancras at 12.05 am?? John E. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark54 Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Unfortunately the PTM only covers Western Lines so does not cover Leeds or say where reversals took place. However these are the full listings: 21:00 StP-Ed X Fish - SX Hull-Whitehaven BG – SX Leeds-Kilmarnock BG – SX Luton-Glasgow StE BG – SX Perth BG 3SK 2CK SLF SLSTP BG Doesn’t say where the X Fish was attached. First 4 vehicles detached at Carlisle 21:15 StP-GStE BG – SX Leeds-Glasgow StE BG 2SLF SLSTP CK 3SK BSK BG BG – SX Kilmarnock (detached Carlisle) 22:05SX / 21:55SO Ed-StP X Fish – SX Aberdeen-Leeds X Fish – SO Aberdeen-Nottigham BG SLSTP SLF 2CK 3SK SK – MFSO BG X Fish – SX Aberdeen-Nottingham 21:05 GStE-StP BG – SO SK – SX BSK 3SK CK SLSTP 2SLF BG BG – Kilmarnock-StPancras The 00:05 St Pancras to Leeds does not appear in this PTM. The nearest I know is in a 1965 ER book. The formation is: 2SK CK BSK SLF SLSTP BG The sleepers and BG are detached at Leeds and the seating coaches work forward to Bradford at 07:00. The return working is 21:30 Bradford-StP which is a 13 coach formation with 9BG to various destinations. The sleepers and BG return on the Glasgow train. Not sure if that was the arrangement in 1960. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLaird Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 Many thanks again Mark, just the information I need. Presumably the Leeds is all MK1 as well? Just to give some background to my request, my next project is a model based on Leeds Wellington c 55 to 65ish. Ultimately, my final project will be based on St Pancras. I intend to run at least two, possibly more time periods but first will be 62ish, then backdated to 55ish. I am tempted to go further back also to a pre nationalisation period. Hence the interest in the types of coaching stock used at different times. I would like to run some ex LMS 12 wheelers but do not know when these ceased to run on the ex Midland Lines. Hopefully someone can tell me!! Regards John E Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark54 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 John, I am embarrassed to say that after re-checking the PTM I have made an error. The St Pancras - Glasgow St Enoch sleeper is indeed listed with 3 non-standard sleepers. The outer SLF & SLSTP are marked as having gangway adaptors to connect with standard stock. My apologies for misleading you. There is nothing to indicate other than Mk1 in the Leeds train. Obviously by 1965 there would be many more Mk1s in service. The fact that they were present in 1960 in the Glasgow train gives you a bit more licence though. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLaird Posted November 29, 2011 Author Share Posted November 29, 2011 No need to apologise Mark, that's good news! The PTM is obviously a good source of information, I have been looking out for one but they seem as rare as hens teeth. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Johnstoun Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Some of the 12 wheelers survived into the blue and grey period quite simply due to the fact that a number of Mk1s got written off in accidents. I cannot remember seeing any on the ex Midland/GSWR/NB route sleepers by the mid 1960s but they were still evident on the Inverness-Euston. Will keep looking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Johnstoun Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Oh - gangway adaptors are something which modellers completely forget about! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 I used the Midland sleeper occasionally in 1973-76 - by then cut back to Glasgow to Nottingham. I've never paid much attention to coaching stock ( ), but I do know I travelled in an ex-LMS sleeper on one occasion. Whether it was a 12-wheeler or not, I don't know. I do remember the toilet compartment was huge - I couldn't see why it had to be the size it was. And there was space for storing luggage over the corridor, accessed from inside the sleeper compartment - something I never saw in any other sleepers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Johnstoun Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Sounds to me like one of the third class 8 wheel sleeping cars built after nationalisation to LMS design diagram D2169 - these had eleven two berth compartments. These lasted until 1975-6. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Sounds to me like one of the third class 8 wheel sleeping cars built after nationalisation to LMS design diagram D2169 - these had eleven two berth compartments. These lasted until 1975-6. I said 'LMS' because I remember fittings being marked 'LMS'. But I guess it could have been built post-Nationalisation, using LMS fittings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peach james Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 I'll have to take a look at the CWN exerpts I have downstairs, but I know I've built a pair of 12w sleepers for somewhere in the same timeframe (55-65) for further north. (S&C). The Bachmann Mk 1's are awaited, but I went down the Comet route because of the delay of the SLEP's showing up. (and after waiting 3+ years for the RMB...I'm expecting them...sooner or later...). I think that the 12w sleepers served quite late, based on the survival of several of them in preserved hands, as per photos on the interweb. Remember the CWN's reflect the ideal railway, not of necessity what happened in the real world. James Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Johnstoun Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Yes - beware of the official version. On one occasion we were travelling back to Perth (1970s) on the overnight Euston to Perth sleeper when one of the twelve wheelers - the first class one, ran a hot box. It had to be shunted at Beattock and the poor incumbents transferred elsewhere in the train. An added complication was that the gangway adaptor had been left on the faulty coach and through communication between the coach ahead - another LMS but 3rd class, and the Mk1 behind, was not possible so some had to do without their tea and biscuits that morning. Such incidents would mean that the make-up of the train would have to be altered, and I understand that prior to withdrawal faults with the ex LMS cars were not uncommon on all routes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark54 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 No need to apologise Mark, that's good news! The PTM is obviously a good source of information, I have been looking out for one but they seem as rare as hens teeth. John, you should consider joining Robert Carroll's (robertcwp on this site) BRCoachingStock Yahoo group. http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/BRCoachingStock/ The 1960 Western Lines PTM is one of the ones available at the moment in the files section in pdf format. There is also a 1968 LMR one that covers the Midland lines and all 3 trains are remarkably similar to the listings above. Due to space limitations he rotates those available but you can put in requests. Unfortunately no Midland ones for the years you require though. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLaird Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 Many thanks again Mark, you have been a great help. I have joined the yahoo group as you suggested and look forward to discovering more information. Thanks also to the other contributors, some fascinating details from those comments as well, please keep them coming. Like James, I too am awaiting the new Bachmann models of the Mk1 sleepers and of course the porthole stock day coaches. I have invested in some Comet LMS sleepers, two built so far. I had to wait for these as I believe they are not kept in stock but only produced when sufficient orders have been received, so if anyone wants some get on the order list. John E. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnw1 Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Not quite "on topic" but here is an LMS designed sleeper in blue/grey at Bedford in 1976 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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