Caledonian Railway livery Help required please

[hayfield]

I have a Wills Caley tank and yes I am fully aware they always painted black, but I have decided to paint mine blue. To save buying too many tins of paint I will paint under the footplate Indian red.

 

Now to the lettering, I have looked at the HMRS sheets and can only find the CR logo on the Scottish wagons sheets, any suggestions please.

 

I also want to line it out, will LNER white/black/white lines be OK

 

The top of the side tanks are curved, am i right in thinking that the lineing stops just below the top of the tank rather than carry on to the tank tops

 

Does the lining on the cab sides go over the opening where its very thin or stop either side of the opening. (I have seen bothtypes)

 

Does the rear bunker have lineing.

 

I have Googled but cannot find to many examples.

 

Thanks in advance

[Guest stuartp]

I have a Wills Caley tank and yes I am fully aware they always painted black, but I have decided to paint mine blue. To save buying too many tins of paint I will paint under the footplate Indian red.

 

Now to the lettering, I have looked at the HMRS sheets and can only find the CR logo on the Scottish wagons sheets, any suggestions please.

 

Fox do loco letters, crests and numbers is several sizes, you might have to experiment to find the right ones.

 

I also want to line it out, will LNER white/black/white lines be OK

 

Yes but the white is a bit thick, strictly it should be a thick black line between two thin white ones.

 

The top of the side tanks are curved, am i right in thinking that the lineing stops just below the top of the tank rather than carry on to the tank tops

 

Correct, the lining is confined to the flat part of the tank.

 

Does the lining on the cab sides go over the opening where its very thin or stop either side of the opening. (I have seen bothtypes)

 

Either. If there was a pattern as to what got what I haven't spotted it.

 

Does the rear bunker have lineing.

 

Yes, both sides and the back and the running number painted in the middle of the back panel. The tank front and cab front are also lined.

 

I have Googled but cannot find to many examples.

 

Try finding pics of the SRPS's 419, a 439 Class 0-4-4.

 

http://www.srpssteam.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=19

 

Thanks in advance

[Belsay Lad]

Hi John

 

Don't know if it is of any use but here is a photo of the splasher of Caledonian Railway 123 as preserved in the Glasgow Riverside museum showing the lining.

 

I've reduced the size of the image to post here, if you would like the original resolution drop me a PM with your email address and I would be happy to send you a copy.

 

regards

Eddie

[hayfield]

Thanks to both of you for taking the time to reply. I am now in a bit of a quandry what to do. Longer term I have 4 CR locos to build and paint (3 x Wills Caley tanks & an etched Caley Pug) Some will be in blue and the others in black.

 

HMRS do not seem to do CR lettering and lineing. I see Fox do them and I guess I will need the large lettering & numbers (1 pack will do the 4 locos) and they do crests seperatly (why not with the lettering and numbers?)

 

As for the lineing I do have a Bob Moore lining pen which I have not used, but I was hoping for something much more simple to start with, such as lining sheets.

 

Any suggestions please

[GC Jack]

I am working on a Caley 55 See pic.

 

As already advised I used the HRMS sheet. I agree that the white is too thick but as there appears to be no alternative I went for it.

 

I suspect that if you paint your loco in the light sky blue the white would less obvious.

 

Fox are very canny aren't they with their products - maximise profits with seperate sheets which they do across the range. No choice with the Caley though.

 

An excellent book on the Caley livery is published by the Caledonian Railway Association www.crassoc.org.uk

its expensive but essential if you plan to make many models as it covers coaches and freight wagons as well as all loco liveries.

 

Jack

[Guest stuartp]

Another vote for the CRA book here, the notes I posted are the result of a quick browse through the 'Tank Engine Liveries' chapter. If you want to pin down exactly what shade of blue 'Caley Blue' was, you need to read it anyway !

 

Fox's distribution of crests, lettering and coach numbering etc across several sheets is a pain, I think I have something like 4 different sheets to do one single wheeler and two coaches, and even now I'm not sure I've got the right ones. If you're not confident with the pen then you could always use the transfers and if you're not happy with the effect, use the pen later to thicken up the black. I've done this with a bowpen to tone down Kemco BR red/black boiler bands before.

[hayfield]

Thanks for the replies, I may go and see if I can find some white lining, but the LNER with a thicker black line may work

 

What size letters and numbers do I need for a tank loco please ? Looks like I might have to bite the bullet and buy £18 worth of transfers

[hayfield]

A quick bump and word done to date

 

The next job will be to try and tackle the lining,

 

Does anyone know what size letters and numbers tank locos have please

[Guest stuartp]

Looking good so far. Sorry, I meant to look up the sizes and forgot all about it.

 

The CRA book gives 10.5" and 6.5" (not including shading) for the 'C R' lettering, the smaller being used on tank engines. Bunker rear numbers were 7.5" or 5" again not including shading, it doesn't say which for tank engines but I would guess the smaller. No size is given for buffer beam numbers (not that I can find, anyway) but I would guess at 5" again. The book does say that when they scaled some of the lettering on the plates in the book it didn't match either of the quoted sizes, and that it all appeared to be hand painted.

 

Incidentally, there is an engraving of a 29 Class condensing tank in the book, very similar in external appearance to your 782 Class, in blue livery. All the 29 Class were black, this is just an artist's impression, but for what it's worth the livery is as follows:

 

Lining on cab sidesheets extends over the door as a single black line, tank sides lined on the vertical part only "C - crest - R" on the tank sides (small letters), splasher and sandbox lined separately, steps lined. It's a side elevation so no clue as to cab, tank etc fronts.

 

I've got a feeling the Fox sheets are labelled small/medium/large rather than quoting sizes, if that's the case let me know and I'll fish mine out of the loft and measure them for you.

[hayfield]

Stuart

 

Thanks

[flubrush]

I've got a feeling the Fox sheets are labelled small/medium/large rather than quoting sizes, if that's the case let me know and I'll fish mine out of the loft and measure them for you.

 

I'd also be interested in the measurements of the Fox lettering. I'm building Caledonian locos in S scale and I've been wondering whether I might get away with using them. Sometimes 4mm products are a bit over scale.

 

Jim.

[Guest stuartp]

No problem, I'll go have a rummage in the morning.

[Guest stuartp]

Ok, with the benefit of a bright light, a magnifying glass, my glasses and a lot of squinting:

FRH 4500 - crests 4mm high.

FRH 4501 - letters 3mm high, numbers 2mm high.

FRH 4502 - letters about 1.75mm high, numbers about 1.5mm high, maybe a smidge less.

 

 

There's also another sheet which I don't have (and which I've just realised I need) for coach lettering which includes the buffer beam lettering and numbering. All dimensions are over the gold letter/number, not the shading, so the 4mm crests match the 3mm letters.

 

Apart from the buffer beam 'C R' and the crest, you could do the lot from FRH 4502 if you accept a dot between the letters instead of a crest.

[flubrush]

Ok, with the benefit of a bright light, a magnifying glass, my glasses and a lot of squinting:

FRH 4500 - crests 4mm high.

FRH 4501 - letters 3mm high, numbers 2mm high.

FRH 4502 - letters about 1.75mm high, numbers about 1.5mm high, maybe a smidge less.

 

 

 

 

There's also another sheet which I don't have (and which I've just realised I need) for coach lettering which includes the buffer beam lettering and numbering. All dimensions are over the gold letter/number, not the shading, so the 4mm crests match the 3mm letters.

 

Apart from the buffer beam 'C R' and the crest, you could do the lot from FRH 4502 if you accept a dot between the letters instead of a crest.

 

Stuart,

 

Many thanks for those measurements.

 

The crest looks correct for the large loco crest in 4mm and is just slightly on the large side for the small loco crest in S scale.

 

The letters look a bit small for 4mm. Going by the sizes in Jim MacIntosh's book the large size should be 3.5mm (10.5") and the small size should be 2.2mm (6.5"), although these differences might fall within the tolerances of the measuring used.

 

The numbers also look a bit small for 4mm. The larger numbers should be 2.6mm (7.875") and the smaller ones 1.7mm (5")

 

I certainly could use the large numbers as small numbers in S scale but the large letters are still a bit big for the small letters in S scale.

 

I had a look at the picture of the other sheet of transfers with the coach lettering. These will probably be OK for S scale since at the smaller sizes of prototype lettering the differences between S and 4mm scale become quite small and at normal viewing distance the lettering becomes impressionistic rather than legible. I note that they don't do a larger coach crest, preumably hoping that the sheet of middle sized crests will do everything.

 

I wonder how much they would charge to re-scale some of their sheets?

 

Jim.

[flubrush]

Stuart,

 

As a follow up, I maybe see where the Fox transfer measurements have come from. I've dug out my old HMRS Caledonian Livery Register and on Page 9 the drawings of the "C" and "R" have confusing dimensions, with the height of the "C" being measured over the gilt face, but the height of the "R" is measured to include the red drop shadow. If Fox went by the "R" measurements, then that would be close to the sizes they have used.

 

For the number measurements, the height has included the black undershading, so again that would account for their measurements.

 

In Jim MacIntosh's recent book, all the height measurements are over the gilt face as you have used for your measurements.

 

Jim.