Wishlist The MREmag & RMweb Wishlist Poll – 2012

[The Stationmaster]

 

* Your lobbying forum idea is amusing and ad absurdum, the corollary of the familiar, well-intentioned yet somehow not, "consensus building" thread, becomes instead, a "click here" button to view (or better yet, download) your vote for a pre-defined slate of options. (I'm thinking along the lines of the "how to vote for the xyz party" instruction card at general elections or a shareholder's proxy card to elect board members.) Sliding down the slippery slope of silliness, we arrive here - the end of the polls!

 

"Well pretty much as I predicted, except that the Silly party won."

 

Ah, looks like that at least in one place the message sank in

[BMacdermott]

The unintended consequence of the present poll layout is that it encourages votes for the one-offs, the unusual, the spectacular. It works against the common-or-garden, the 0-6-0 goods or 4-4-0s in many minor variations which is what will produce long-term sales rather than the short-term interest of the Q1, the Ugly Ducking, the BP.

 

I'm not sure that is entirely good for the hobby in the long run.

 

For example South Eastern modellers need a 4-4-0, but which one? The L1 to replace the Triang? The D in the NRM? The E1 or D1 built in large numbers, The L for visual interest? The voting gets split and none ever gets near the higher reaches of the poll. Eastern and North-Eastern modellers have long battled for an 0-6-0 in similar circumstances.

 

 

I would like to see the poll start with a General Section. What major gaps need filling by something/anything? An Atlantic, a large Western tank, more 4-4-0s/0-6-0s....... Then get down to the detail by class. It would give producers an overview to set the detail wishlist in perspective.

Dear Forester

 

As mentioned in the 'press release' as the start of this thread, The Poll Team has written a maximum of six lines of easily digested text about each of the items listed, giving data such as (generally) build dates; quantity in class, area of operation; type of operation; outline withdrawal period; and whether any preserved etc.

 

When you go into a category (eg SR Steam Locos) you will be able to 'hit a link' to The Guide.

 

Because steam locos are now listed in each company (or BR) by wheel arrangement, pollsters can easily compare each of the SR 4-4-0s against each other and make a reasoned choice.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[BMacdermott]

Are you deliberately early for April 2012? - Or late for April 2011? - Just wondered!!

 

Hello Neal

 

We decided to let the modelling and collecting community have notice of The Poll now for two reasons: firstly, MREmag has closed for Christmas until the New Year (hence the posting on Friday on both MREmag and RMweb); and we need to get press releases to all the printed magazines to allow them time to (hopefully) get them slotted into issues that will reach overseas subscribers in time to enable them to vote. We didn't want press releases to appear in any magazines prior to notice being given here and on MREmag.

 

Incidentally, you may like to note that The Poll Team is listing 39 items of GWR (and BR(WR)) PCCS and NPCCS.

 

Regards

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[Forester]

I just think the poll has got too detailed. I would like to vote in much broader categories - any South Eastern 4-4-0, any Atlantic etc.

 

At present I am put off voting fo what I really need as there is no chance the community will settle on a particular example and propel it up the poll. So I vote, along with everyone else for the spectacular, the Duke of Gloucester, Turbomotive, Cock O' the North - even though I will never actually buy one

[BMacdermott]

I just think the poll has got too detailed. I would like to vote in much broader categories - any South Eastern 4-4-0, any Atlantic etc.

 

At present I am put off voting fo what I really need as there is no chance the community will settle on a particular example and propel it up the poll. So I vote, along with everyone else for the spectacular, the Duke of Gloucester, Turbomotive, Cock O' the North - even though I will never actually buy one

Hello again, Forester

 

The feedback from pollsters last year was that it was too detailed - hence the hard work of The Team to cut that back to a highly effective 700 (or so).

 

Duke of Gloucester was way ahead in popularity within the BR steam loco category. The P2 scored 70 votes and was fourth in the LNER category (behind the J15 with 82; the D11 with 81 and the D16 with 75). The Turbomotive scored just 5 votes and just 3 votes in rebuilt form.

 

The impression of The Team is that a number of types are gradually gaining focus over the years - for example, the LNER J classes are beginning to differentiate. And this can only be done by consistent voting by the pollsters.

 

Regards

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[Andy Y]

even though I will never actually buy one

 

I'd like to pick up on this point if I may and say that my feelings are that you should vote for what you would commit to purchase (if the model is to acceptable standards and performance). There is little merit if you vote for something you think someone else would like to buy. The poll is to gain some measurement over what people would like to buy rather than an opinion poll over what you think should be produced.

 

Creating broad-brush categories wouldn't be particularly productive in my opinion; the manufacturers can interpret absolute results and then think "well if we do such-and-such 4-4-0 it means we can also do X, Y and Z".

[The Stationmaster]

Picking up on Andy's point I can't see any sense in voting for something which you aren't going to buy. Surely the whole point of the poll, especially as it will now be emerging, is to help indicate the potential market? Admittedly some of us will sometimes buy 'off (layout) scheme' things because they have a special appeal or for sentimental reasons but otherwise, especially as prices continue to rise, I wish to target my money where it will produce results that suit my layout setting aspirations or can get pretty close to them and can be explained away until something more suitable comes along in my price and skill range.

 

So over the past several years all of my votes and all of my wishlisting has concentrated on that - with a couple of my steam outline 'targets' now realised (oddly both are 8 coupled) and the diesels near complete; shame about the dmus. Had I voted for some sort of 'generic GMES 3-5-0' I might not have seen any of what I am after - vote generic and no doubt you'll get generic, or what the manufacturers' own research has told them will sell (and which I am unlikely to buy).

[phil gollin]

 

............. For example South Eastern modellers need a 4-4-0, but which one? The L1 to replace the Triang? The D in the NRM? The E1 or D1 built in large numbers, The L for visual interest? The voting gets split and none ever gets near the higher reaches of the poll. Eastern and North-Eastern modellers have long battled for an 0-6-0 in similar circumstances. .........

 

 

100% agree.

 

There are "generic" needs that require filling (the Southern "older" 4-4-0 is a good example) another is the 2-BIL/2-HAL divide. I am sure the same applies to other regions.

 

.

[gc4946]

Have any of the other magazines (Model Rail, BRM, Railway Modeller, etc) expressed interest in promoting this poll?

 

If as many of these magazines as possible join up and actively promote this poll each year, then this may give a more representative cross-section of modellers' wishes.

 

Will there be safeguards against this type of voting, such as this example cited in the press? http://www.telegraph...atest-icon.html

 

I hope this initiative works out well as a well-designed poll with choices carefully and fully explained, and the results actively followed up by the manufacturers, might get more to vote for their favourite wishes in years to come knowing they could potentially be acted upon.

[Andy Y]

Have any of the other magazines (Model Rail, BRM, Railway Modeller, etc) expressed interest in promoting this poll?

 

Whilst not wishing to steal the Poll Team's limelight I can advise that Model Rail have confirmed (to me) they will publicise the poll and communications will be made to try and solicit as much publicity as possible.

 

Results (as with all other previous polls I've run on here) will be checked for abuse of any form and the relevant votes removed.

[Ian J.]

A question for Andy, will the poll be limited to RMweb members, or open to anyone?

[BMacdermott]

 

Whilst not wishing to steal the Poll Team's limelight I can advise that Model Rail have confirmed (to me) they will publicise the poll and communications will be made to try and solicit as much publicity as possible.

 

Results (as with all other previous polls I've run on here) will be checked for abuse of any form and the relevant votes removed.

 

Thanks Andy,

 

In reply to gc4946, The Poll Team is approaching all the magazines and we will give details as soon as we can. A number have supported it in the past, but - as we are a 'new team' - we are making fresh applications out of courtesy to all the editors.

 

Regards

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[griffgriff]

I can't let it lie.... 'Need' for goodness sake surely it's 'would like' if you need something that badly learn the skills and build one. There are a number of things I desire and there are a few things that I believe might sell well but I don't think any of them are a matter of need. The only need in the equation is the manufacturers need to make a profit and providing they do then they will be around to develop new models (obviously no guarantee that they will but they have to be in it for us to win it)

[BMacdermott]

I can't let it lie.... 'Need' for goodness sake surely it's 'would like' i

 

Hello Griff Griff

 

Indeed, it's 'would like' - and that's why we spent a long time coming up with with a very clear purpose (which I have taken the liberty of repeating below).

 

The purpose of the Poll is: To enable the railway modelling and collecting community to let the major ready-to-run manufacturers and those who ‘commission’ models know which railway models they would like to see made from new tooling.

 

Regards

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[Guest Belgian]

Hello again, Forester

 

The feedback from pollsters last year was that it was too detailed - hence the hard work of The Team to cut that back to a highly effective 700 (or so).

 

Duke of Gloucester was way ahead in popularity within the BR steam loco category. The P2 scored 70 votes and was fourth in the LNER category (behind the J15 with 82; the D11 with 81 and the D16 with 75). The Turbomotive scored just 5 votes and just 3 votes in rebuilt form.

 

The impression of The Team is that a number of types are gradually gaining focus over the years - for example, the LNER J classes are beginning to differentiate. And this can only be done by consistent voting by the pollsters.

 

Regards

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

I have to agree Brian 'a highly effective 700' would be the perfect model for me, especially as rebuilt by Urie!

 

Jeremy English

[Guest Belgian]

On a rather more serious note, after reading the previous postings and following on from the many postings over the years regarding the aggregation of votes for a number of 'groups' of locomotives such as the GWR 2-8-0/2 tanks,, would it not be possible to have a sub-category for such like, so that the 'generic' heading might be GWR heavy freight, with sub-categories of class 42xx, 5205, 72xx, 47xx, etc?

 

JE

[Forester]

I don't wish to outstay my welcome on this subject, but there are many models I would "like to see made" (so I could admire an exquisite - or ghastly - design in 3 dimensions) but relatively few I would buy that would fit in with my region and era.

So I was pleased to see the Clan, having seen only one original loco of the class but briefly and been impressed by it but none having been preserved, and I enjoyed studying it. In fact I voted for it, knowing I could not actually use one, when voting for the locos I would buy was a waste of time because the votes would be split among so many variants and none would ever figure highly enough in the poll to be produced.

 

I wonder how many others think:" There's no change of xxxxx ever being made but I'd be really interested to see a model of Big Bertha so I'll use a vote on that instead, even though I model Scotland/East Anglia/Cornwall".

[Ian J.]

Categorization of votable items might only be possible to a certain degree - much will depend on what software the poll is going to use.

[The Stationmaster]

On a rather more serious note, after reading the previous postings and following on from the many postings over the years regarding the aggregation of votes for a number of 'groups' of locomotives such as the GWR 2-8-0/2 tanks,, would it not be possible to have a sub-category for such like, so that the 'generic' heading might be GWR heavy freight, with sub-categories of class 42xx, 5205, 72xx, 47xx, etc?

JE

The aggregation of the two near identical GW 2-8-0T classes has long been a hobbyhorse of mine in the old poll (leading to several illogical answers which I suspect originated in the Dominions) and I think it's good idea. The question then comes where to draw the line - which is where Brian &co will no doubt have made a decision - but I think it starts to go too far if we chuck a heavily route restricted mixed traffic 2-8-0 into the same group as far more widely used heavy freight & mineral locos. That is where I see a problem with generics becoming too generic to make the optimum sense for either us as potential customers or the manufacturers. (with due apologies for dropping down to such parochial detail in the discussion)

[Guest dilbert]

From the OP :

 

If you have any queries, please email us at ThePollTeam@gmail.com – not Andy York. Ensure you put ‘Poll’ as the subject, lest you are ignored as spam. You can normally expect a reply within 24 hours. This is for queries only – there will be a box for suggestions for 2013 in The Poll itself. The 2012 content is ‘closed’ (except to deletions due to announcements).

 

The subject content for 2012 is locked and I believe that are many people who will have thanked those who have placed the time and effort into the consolidation of a list, that should give greater clarity into the choices that will be presented. Rome wasn't built in a day either and if you believe that there is an item that is missing then use the 'box for suggestion for 2013' as was mentioned.

 

One of the positives of the poll in the past (even though I have disagreed with content structure) is that it embraces a concept that goes beyond the political UK electoral voting system of 'first past the post' - this concept is aka proportional representation... dilbert

[BMacdermott]

Many thanks Jeremy, Stationmaster and Dilbert

 

I won't go into the detail here, but you can rest assured that The Poll Team went through hoops to get the text into what it feels is a good way of presenting it to you. We tried various ideas in a practical manner but settled on what you will eventually see. We always work on 'the balance of evidence presented' as opposed to 'I'm a GWR expert and I insist loco x goes in'. This is part of the benefit of working in an effective and positive team.

 

We work under the mantra: The sum of the total will always exceed the sum of the individual parts. When The 2012 Poll is over, we will listen to your views. We are certain that The Poll is better than last year - but probably not as good as it will be in 2013 (and each subsequent year). I am an ex-Quality Manager and subscribe to continuous improvement. I used to teach it!

 

We believe that it will be easy for most pollsters to find their way through the locos easily as we have listed them by wheel arrangement (smallest to largest, tanks before tenders). BR running numbers have been added for your reassurance.

 

We did think of listing locos in order of BR running number per se - but that becomes a nightmare with the SR!

 

Don't forget that - this year - you are not restricted to 10 votes only. You can vote for what you realistically want. That means that if you do find something 'split' where you might prefer it to have been 'joined', you won't be wasting any votes to achieve your end goals.

 

Regards

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[Karhedron]

Don't forget that - this year - you are not restricted to 10 votes only. You can vote for what you realistically want. That means that if you do find something 'split' where you might prefer it to have been 'joined', you won't be wasting any votes to achieve your end goals.

Nice to hear, that will make voting easier. I always enjoy these things although I accept that manufacturers treat them as more of a bellwether than a precise indicator.

[BMacdermott]

A question for Andy, will the poll be limited to RMweb members, or open to anyone?

 

Hello Ian

 

I guess Andy 'missed' this - I can tell you that The Poll will be open to everyone.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[Ian J.]

 

Hello Ian

 

I guess Andy 'missed' this - I can tell you that The Poll will be open to everyone.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

Ta. I would just have used the 'Like This' button, but I've run out of my quota for the day

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I wonder how many others think:" There's no change of xxxxx ever being made but I'd be really interested to see a model of Big Bertha so I'll use a vote on that instead, even though I model Scotland/East Anglia/Cornwall".

Don't get me wrong, I like seeing good models of subjects that are no use to me in modelling terms. But when it comes to wishlist voting, I go with the obvious intent of such polls: "This is what I would like to see made, and will purchase provided it is a decent model". (And I might even purchase it if it isn't as good as it could be, but capable of being knocked into shape.)

 

The other observations I would make are that the game has changed, relatively unusual items are finding a market; and if everyone with a minority interest bails on that interest and goes for something they feel is more likely to command support, that's a self fulfilling prophecy...