Sound System of the Future (Maybe?)

[APOLLO]

First I'll state i'm not into DCC, never will be, too many loco's, etc etc.

 

However, visiting Wigan exhibition last week I was impressed with the sound on a couple of layouts, Oldham Parcels and Gifford St.

 

For me, the current method of delivering sound,i.e. dedicated chip & speaker in every loco is both expensive and limited in scope. I wonder if the following method would be feasible.

 

Think of a longish exhibition layout (Gifford St). The sound system of the future (SSF for short) would consist of the following.

 

1. Lap top computer OR dedicated "box" pre programmed with sounds. All manner of sounds, loco, coach wheels on rail joints, short wheelbase stock on rail joints, platform sounds, announcments, loco & guards whistles, church bells, industry, litterally hundreds of em. (also availiable on the net to buy / download as required) - so we now have our "bank" of suitable sound.

 

2. Sound delivery - under layout speakers, perhaps every 12" - 24" apart, linked by one wire. Each speaker would require an electronic "co-ordination" box.

 

3. The clever (hard) bit - co-ordination of the speaker to the loco, Taking one speaker only, As a train approaches a speaker, it turns on, with increasing loco sound. as the loco passes over the speaker the loco sound is at it's highest, replaced by the wheel sound of the passing train, diminishing to zero after the last vehicle has passed, While the train is passing, loco sound at max, the next speaker along starts, the previous speaker turning off. Thus we have a passing "wave" of correct sound as the train passes. Thus a minimum of three speakers will be working when a train is moving (approach / overhead / train passing)

 

How to co-ordimate the location of the loco to the speaker is the difficult bit, reed switches come to mind, but I'm sure the electronic wizzards among you will have better ideas. I'm sure the whole system could be made "wireless", though a simple power wire to each module would be needed.

Some sort of simple transmitter on each loco, receiver on each speaker. Could also be a non electrically wired transducer, etc. When starting a train, the laptop would switch the first (nearest) speaker to its highest.

 

The laptop controls all, just an input from the controller (DCC or DC) to determine throttle / engine speed, revving up / power on / coasting. Each train consist could be easilly pre programmed say D100 (class 45) + 10 Mk1 coaches, 45000 (Black 5) + 30 Wagons, etc. Will need a good user friendly programme to allow quick train changes, etc. Platform announcements just a tap on the keyboard, Church bells, etc etc also, these sounds directed only to the correct speaker as needed.

 

Advantages - A 100% portable system, easilly added to / modified, Will work with any scale, and easilly moved between layouts. Many, many sounds possible, NOT just loco sounds. A system limited only by your imagination.

 

If such a system was availiable I would be more than interested. Over to you, especially the electronic whizzes, - good idea or a non starter ?.

 

Brit15

[M Graff]

http://www.soundtraxx.com/surround/

Already made, "Surroundtraxx" by Soundtraxx.

[Nigelcliffe]

Available today from several sources:

 

As hardware system from: Surroundtraxx, though the loco sounds are US oriented.

As an add-on to TrainController from Friewald

As a pile of "not quite finished" proof-of-concept bits of code in JMRI.

As some "ideas" for using RailCom devices from www.dcc4pc.co.uk

 

Upsides; as you say, no sound decoders in locos, lots of low frequency is easy, can change sounds, backgrounds noises, etc..

Downsides; its not currently possible to exactly synchronise the loco sounds to movement on the loco, whereas a really good sound decoder in a loco can achieve very high synchronisation of movement and train loads.

 

- Nigel

[APOLLO]

Thanks for the replies - I was unaware of these systems, and will have a look at them.

 

No end to technology is there !. I wonder what the "LMS Brittania" whistle sounds like (soundtraxx) !!

 

Brit15

[tender]

There's also a surround sound add-on for TrainController.

http://www.freiwald.com/pages/sound.htm

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Have you ever listened to a high grade replay system with a quality recording? A classical stereo pair can 'image' a sound stage very well indeed from a decent source recording; that last being the primary determining factor. If you have not had this experience, find someone who listens to classical music with a good stereo set up (the speakers alone will have cost well in excess of £1000) get yourself one of Peter Handford's old transacord recordings, whack up the volume to realistic level, and experience what such a simple concept as stereo can deliver, before proposing anything more complex.

[clickertyclack]

Hi Brit15,

Scrolling through posts as we do sometimes trying to find something, I came across this one of yours with reference to sound systems.I must admit to having a foot in both camps with respect to sound, both that of DCC and DC.

The system I have built for myself thou, although having several elements relative to DCC sound, the engine or motion control is in fact DC . I believe it 'ticks' the boxes as far as your post is concerned in many ways. Forum etiquette precludes me from discussing it further here but please take a look at the following in the Electrics (Non DCC) forum which I hope you will find of interest.

 

 

DC Loco And Layout Sound. The Controller

http://www.rmweb.co....d-layout-sound/

 

DC Loco And Layout Sound 2 Sound In The Background

http://www.rmweb.co.... times, serif">

 

DC Loco And Layout Sound 3 Loco Sound On The Move

http://www.rmweb.co....layout-sound-3/

 

DC Loco And Layout Sound 4. Best Onboard Sound In The World?

http://www.rmweb.co....layout-sound-4/

 

The last having stereo CD quality onboard augmented by offboard sub bass in synch may be of particular interest.

 

Regards

CC

[APOLLO]

Thanks for the links CC, as others say, very interesting stuff. I've had a quick look, and it looks good.

I'll take a closer look soon.

 

Brit15

[Nigelcliffe]

DC Loco And Layout Sound 4. Best Onboard Sound In The World?

http://www.rmweb.co....layout-sound-4/

 

The last having stereo CD quality onboard augmented by offboard sub bass in synch may be of particular interest.

 

Whilst an interesting development (though currently lacking information on how it is done), your video shows it to not be "CD quality" sound on board the loco. Your video has comments about the low frequency response of small speakers in the loco; roll-off at 300Hz giving limited bass, and the difficulties in making a commercial sub-woofer's cut-off match the limited low frequency range of the loco speaker. Inserting/increasing the harmonics of lower frequencies to fool the listener is a perfectly reasonable way around this limitation, but its not CD quality audio.

 

 

- Nigel

[Nigelcliffe]

Doddy, you are neatly side-stepping my point.

 

What is transmitted to the on-board system is irrelevant to my view of "CD quality", its what comes out through the speakers. Basic physics comes into play, and the bass cut-off is in the 300Hz region, that's not giving anything resembling a CD over a cheap stereo system, let alone posh HiFi. The video acknowledges this limitation quite clearly.

 

The entire system might sound very good, its impossible to tell from a YouTube clip. But, the sound coming out of the loco alone is not what I'd call CD quality.

 

 

- Nigel

[clickertyclack]

Gents,

 

Nigelcliffe is entirely correct in stating it is not CD quality. I lied. Its 48kz /16bit (spdif)!

CD quality has often been mentioned in this forum being 44.1kz/16bit (not 24bit as often stated by someone here) in being somewhat of a benchmark on the soundchip wish list. However I do feel that it is a nit-pick. I suppose what I should have said is that it would be CD quality if I had full range speakers for sound playback on-board. However I am happy to call it CD quality or, as good as it gets at the moment. Albeit at 48kz. Does that make it higher spec than CD? Its certainly better than DCC soundchips. No white noise(hiss), stereo, bass sub in synch if wanted, huge soundsets memory wise. I won't go on. I do believe that DCC manufacturers would happily call their systems CD compatible if they produced one irrespective of speaker characteristics.

 

 

 

 

CC

[Nigelcliffe]

CC - As I have said, I am sure your system sounds good. The elements which have been described should deliver much better audio than limited sound clips from a current DCC chip. However, I part company on the "CD Quality onboard " claims due to losses at the final output.

 

Without a system architecture description, its difficult to comment sensibly. I have a guess as to how transmission of audio to the loco works, clues in the videos and in Doddy's posts. But its a guess. Most radio systems to transmit audio will degrade the audio quality. Whether that change in audio can be perceived or whether it matters to a listener is another question.

 

 

- Nigel

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

I am not entirely sure why this is being discussed on this particular sub forum. The heading is DCC Sound and concentrates on the current sound chip market that is the principal reason that some of us made the conversion to DCC anyway. As I have pointed out to CC privately and now publicly, we are hardly likely to change back to DC because of this system.

 

There has been DC sound around for many moons and it has never gained any credibility in the market place for a variety or reasons. All the systems I have heard on DC sound have been less spectacular than the current crop of DCC sound chips available and until this system offers the same availability and flexibility and indeed manufacturer support, I doubt it will be anything but a marginal thing.

 

What worries me as a regular contributor to this forum is that this system is being actively touted as an alternative to DCC sound chips which are now supported as to quality and delivery of promises by organisations that can back up their assertions with hard cash and sales figures.

 

This sub forum is directed at those modellers who wish to discuss the relative merits of DCC sound chips and locos and projects thereto.

 

I think CC would be well advised to tout his products to those who can take him to the giddy heights that this system obviously deserves if all I read is to be believed.

 

At the same time I have spent some time having to eliminate stray posts about this very system. If it is that good it deserves a place in it's own special forum as a sub forum of DC and not on here.

 

It needs to be said that some of our more inexperienced members might well be confused by this system especially since they are here mainly to check out the DCC Sound market and RTR at that. This system does not qualify under any of those headings

[clickertyclack]

'As I have pointed out to CC privately and now publicly, we are hardly likely to change back to DC because of this system'.

 

I do not believe I have advocated that. Can you show me where it states this in any of my posts please?

 

'All the systems I have heard on DC sound have been less spectacular than the current crop of DCC sound chips available '

 

Until now that is!!!! Motion control of my system is DC but the sound system is digital.If the above was really the case then I would not have bothered. Maybe I will be allowed to bring it along to the next SWAG members day so it can be compared with your offerings David? Captain Kernow?

 

'What worries me as a regular contributor to this forum is that this system is being actively touted as an alternative to DCC sound chips'

 

Touted? May I assure you David that is not the case. I have not stated anywhere that it is an alternative to DCC sound. That has come from you alone. The titles of my posts clearly state, DC Loco And Layout Sound. This system that you obviously feel threatened by is aimed at DC users.

 

'This sub forum is directed at those modellers who wish to discuss the relative merits of DCC sound chips and locos and projects thereto.'

 

So why was this not brought to the attention of the OP ( Apollo) who clearly stated that he was not into DCC and never had been'? Because you assumed at the time that sound was the preserve of DCC users alone.

 

'I think CC would be well advised to tout his products to those who can take him to the giddy heights that this system obviously deserves if all I read is to be believed'

 

Touting my products? When my orignal post was removed ( DCC Loco And Layout Sound 4, CD Quality onboard) a direction to this forum for readers of DCC Sound who may be interested, you voiced your concerns to Andy York that I was advertising. Not only did I refute this alegation to him but Andy himself having seen my posts disagreed with your assumption.

Please believe that what you have seen and heard is indeed better than your soundchips but I state also that I have no wish to enter a DC ver DCC Sound debate. No Contest!

 

CC

[clickertyclack]

CC - As I have said, I am sure your system sounds good. The elements which have been described should deliver much better audio than limited sound clips from a current DCC chip. However, I part company on the "CD Quality onboard " claims due to losses at the final output.

 

Without a system architecture description, its difficult to comment sensibly. I have a guess as to how transmission of audio to the loco works, clues in the videos and in Doddy's posts. But its a guess. Most radio systems to transmit audio will degrade the audio quality. Whether that change in audio can be perceived or whether it matters to a listener is another question.

 

 

- Nigel

 

Ok Nigel,

We will agree to differ on the CD quality issue then. What if I change the cut off freq of the ofboard speakers ( if I were using them in sync, which as you are probably aware by now I can) to 300hz ? Would you consider it true CD quality then? It does not matter to me.

I am at a loss(!) to understand the statement ' losses at the final output' What losses? On the final audio amp?

 

Without a system architecture description, its difficult to comment sensibly.

No system architecture info forthcoming I'm affraid!

 

Most radio systems to transmit audio will degrade the audio quality.

Agreed if the audio component was modulating an RF Carrier, but it is not.The clue you failed to note was in an earlier answer.

48kz spdif.

 

CC