rob D2 Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Hi, Just musing the above - does track renewal take place when there has been heavy snowfall ? The reason I ask is that I was thinking of making my plank a snow scene but if none of my ballast/spoil wagons will be moving it's a non starter., I would have thought ballast would have frozen inside the wagons making it rather problemmatic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted December 18, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 18, 2011 Hi, Just musing the above - does track renewal take place when there has been heavy snowfall ? The reason I ask is that I was thinking of making my plank a snow scene but if none of my ballast/spoil wagons will be moving it's a non starter., I would have thought ballast would have frozen inside the wagons making it rather problemmatic. In the good old days the PWay chappies would all be taken off their normal work for 'snowing' duties so the answer is 'probably not'. And snow usually keep stuff a bit warmer - the real menace for freezing ballast in wagons is rain when the temperature is around freezing and lower and I have known of jobs being cancelled because of that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 The ballast won't be frozen, just simply covered in snow Equally, most machines will work in such conditions, issues arise when the temperatures drop or the snow ingress is in the moving parts The next issue is actually being able to see the scene of work If there is light snow most work will continue However, if heavy snow is forecast most work won't even commence The final issue is if work has already commenced and the snow is worse than forecast Current H&S requirements mean outdoor working is limited, so what takes one hour can take much, much longer, and in extreme circumstances is limited to just 15 minute sessions with 15 minute breaks By the time the worker has walked to the scene this leaves them very little time to actually perform the task! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted December 18, 2011 Author Share Posted December 18, 2011 Ah right, doesn't look like I can go snowy then. I'd love a yard with lines of snow covered wagons - but if they never move ?! Back to the drawing board , thanks guys. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscale Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Many years ago an old railwayman recited this adaptation of a quote from the rule book regarding weather conditions, in particular weather conditions causing poor visibility, but it should be taken as humourous! During fog and falling snow, to the cabin we should go. If perchance it should rain, to the cabin once again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
halfwit Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Here in Buxton there's a crossing being installed in the snow today. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted December 18, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 18, 2011 Current H&S requirements mean outdoor working is limited, so what takes one hour can take much, much longer, and in extreme circumstances is limited to just 15 minute sessions with 15 minute breaks By the time the worker has walked to the scene this leaves them very little time to actually perform the task! I'm trying to reconcile this piece of nonsense (which I don't recall seeing in H&S legislation so I'll have to ask my expert on that sort of thing) with how on earth one is expected to operate a railway in bad weather? Are modern outdoor staff made of papier mache or is there someone somewhere in a nice cosy office who is so frightened of the great outdoors that they are trying to protect everybody else from it for fear they might be of similarly weak constitution? Sorry to rant but what on earth do they think we did in the past; how on earth do they think we kept points clear (British point heaters aren't much use in deep or sustained snow) and having on more than one occasion spent hours, or even a whole night, out with a steam lance, scrapers and all the other paraphenalia of clearing points I just wonder how they are meant to do it now? On my patch in 1978 the drifted snow on the Down Main Line was level with my nose if I stood at rail level - and we kept running; I had AHB level crossings under snow drifts 16 feet deep - and we kept running; it took 8 of us 6 hours to get a fortuitously boiler fitted loco off the stabling point to get the lance into use and we had to dig out points we could only find by picking out the tops of the handlever handles sticking out of the snow. By the third day we had 60 PWay men digging out rodding and cranks to get more points back working. And that was hardly unique and in any sort of really bad (snowy) winter it was hardly unusual - what do they do now, shut up shop and stay in the cabin? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 That's the briefing we have when working (construction and/or ground maintenance) outdoors in extreme cold on a closed section of railway line The limit is just 15 minutes As a result most work gets suspended instead Take a look at any major outdoor work and you will see this is the case, the railway is no exception Usually the only people left working are those working (within the cab of) machinery Equally, checking my briefing papers and if the temperature falls below -30'C then the time limit is just 5 minutes with a 15 minute break! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted December 18, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 18, 2011 H&S people often treat Croners as the Bible for interpretation. A recent article on their website regarding working in cold conditions has the following paragraph "The Workplace Regulations do not apply to outdoor workplaces such as in agriculture or construction. In these circumstances, extreme cold weather can cause significant health and safety problems. The risk assessment will be a fundamental tool to determine what measures are necessary to protect people. Measures will typically include the provision of warm clothing, hot drinks, warm rest areas and a regime for limiting the length of time worked in the cold. In cases of extreme low temperature, work may need to be suspended." Thus each job has to be treated on its merits. If it is essential to do an outdoor job in cold conditions, mitigation measures have to be put in place following risk assessment of the task. It can be just as bad working in 10oC with driving rain and a cold wind as in still air at -5oC. As far as relaying is concerned, the risk of plant failure in cold weather is greatly increased, and consequently the risk of possession overrun. In today's attitude of blame and penalty, the line of least resistance is to cancel the work because the accountants won't be happy if you cost them money. One instance I recall happened after some points south of Wolverhampton station had been partly lifted out, the hydraulics on the track laying machine failed as the temperature plunged and the new track could not be lifted into place. The overrun was several hours but in those days continuation of diversions and special buses after the possession time were easy to arrange. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Send the complainers to Canada or the northern states of the USA! You think they don't work in the Winter when snow is almost guarenteed from December thru March? Even as far south as New Jersey we get two weeks at the end of January when you know the temperature will not get above freezing at any time of the day. God help England...... Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted December 19, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 19, 2011 Send the complainers to Canada or the northern states of the USA! You think they don't work in the Winter when snow is almost guarenteed from December thru March? Even as far south as New Jersey we get two weeks at the end of January when you know the temperature will not get above freezing at any time of the day. God help England...... Best, Pete. I quite agree Pete. I fully understand (and have seen similar to) SE's point about plant reliability in cold weather and I also fully concur with his point about financial penalties due to overruns. But the simple fact is that in Britain in cold weather when temperatures are at or below freezing a lot of work has to go on - farmers cannot leave cattle unmilked and animals to starve and railways cannot necessarily leave trains locked in sidings due to frozen points or coal trains not loaded when power stations need their contents. Croners appear to be a business - not a legislator - and they probably have considerably less experience of H&S matters in the railway environment than those of us who spent years working in it or who currently deal with it from the basis of experience and common sense. As SE has said, it can be just as bad working in 10degreesC in driving rain (as we both probably know) as it can be working in -5degrees C (as I certainly know - and it ain't too bad if you dress for the weather and do your best to keep dry, which can be difficult when you're using a steam lance ). Just picking arbitrary figures out of the air or off a website is about as much practical value as a chocolate teapot - as SE says 'each job has to be treated on its merits' and in my view preferably by somebody who knows what is involved and what the impact of the prevailing conditions is going to be on those involved. For example lineside photography in -10degrees C of 'dry' cold struck me as a perfectly pleasant way of spending the day (until we were arrested - but that's another story). Meanwhile I'd best get back to planning my next 'outing' - on a quayside in January with no choice about having to go or not, whatever the weather, once the date is set and I'm on site. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 Mike, It is beautiful here this morning - fantastic blue sky with the stars still out. Sunrise is in about 5 minutes and it is -9C outside the city...... All the best for the holidays, mate, if I don't get another chance. Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted December 19, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 19, 2011 Mike, It is beautiful here this morning - fantastic blue sky with the stars still out. Sunrise is in about 5 minutes and it is -9C outside the city...... All the best for the holidays, mate, if I don't get another chance. Best, Pete. And to you Pete - looks like we'll just be getting dreary wet weather. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 96701 Posted December 19, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 19, 2011 Hang on, chaps. I seem to recall last winter was a bit bad, but quite a lot of work got done at Reading, so lets not get into the 'we're crap in Britain' camp. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted December 19, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 19, 2011 Hang on, chaps. I seem to recall last winter was a bit bad, but quite a lot of work got done at Reading, so lets not get into the 'we're crap in Britain' camp. Quite right Phil (although the snow had gone by then I think but it was still fairly cold) - so it seems that some folk aren't frightened by missives from the comfort of big office blocks. In fact a gang I saw working on cable route recovery at Reading a few weeks back were not out in the best of conditions with plenty of rain to keep them but that still didn't stop them getting down to the ground to delve into old cable conduits. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted December 20, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 20, 2011 .................railways cannot necessarily leave trains locked in sidings due to frozen points or coal trains not loaded when power stations need their contents. As SE has said, it can be just as bad working in 10degreesC in driving rain (as we both probably know) as it can be working in -5degrees C (as I certainly know - and it ain't too bad if you dress for the weather and do your best to keep dry, which can be difficult when you're using a steam lance ). Probably the worst instance I ever experienced was at a Power Station - freezing fog at Rugeley. Fortunately, although before the present H&S culture, I had mentally mentally "Risk Assessed" the work and put on my leather riggers gloves before climbing a signal to check out something. The gloves froze to the ladder but the skin was still on my fingers. Croners appear to be a business - not a legislator - and they probably have considerably less experience of H&S matters in the railway environment than those of us who spent years working in it or who currently deal with it from the basis of experience and common sense. Agreed, they are a business - now owned by an specialist insurance company i believe - but have a lot of useful information in a readily accessible format when it comes to construction legislation and case law. We used their information service, in those days a handbook but now I believe on-line, as a reference for the non-railway side of signalling works. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trog Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Two big problems when working in snowy weather are... The ballast freezing in the hoppers, leaving the train over night in a carriage shed, and loading the train just before it departs to site have both been tried and failed in my experience. The only cure I have heard of that is supposed to work, is to pour two gallons of petrol over the top of the wagon, leave to soak for five or ten minutes and light the blue touch paper. Needless to say this proceedure is frowned upon by the safety people and the wagon owners. The other and more serious problem is that if you lift and pack frozen track, you can then loose top and line suddenly perhaps days later when the ice you packed it up on melts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted December 20, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 20, 2011 Agreed, they are a business - now owned by an specialist insurance company i believe - but have a lot of useful information in a readily accessible format when it comes to construction legislation and case law. We used their information service, in those days a handbook but now I believe on-line, as a reference for the non-railway side of signalling works. Very interesting - thanks SE. My oppo is a specialist in CDM regs and it will be interesting to hear his views on them as he works very much at the sharp end with his clients including advising them when 'the Inspectorate' have cause to call. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotcent Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Thre years (I think) ago there was a week's posession over Christmas / New year for complete renewal of the track and formation outside my house (Ladybank to Perth line) The guys worked 24 hours a day, and didn't appear to stop for anything. The temperature was almost always below freezing, the sun never shone, there were frequent showers of snow / hail / freezing rain, and there was a bitter northerly wind. I didn't envy those guys! Allan F Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted December 29, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 29, 2011 Very interesting - thanks SE. My oppo is a specialist in CDM regs and it will be interesting to hear his views on them as he works very much at the sharp end with his clients including advising them when 'the Inspectorate' have cause to call. I have had a word with him about them and he sums them up as, I quote, 'They are the let's assess the Tippex types' - in other words a lot of what they come up with is not based on practicalities or what you come up against out on the job or on worksites (and as I said - he is a specialist in CDM who knows what he's at as he's had masses of experience working in a wide variety of conditions from Arctic to desert and he isn't afraid to put Red Notices on his clients' worksites). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Posted pre server crash but lost. I have done plenty of cable laying in the snow, as long as you can see the trough route and the concrete lids are not frozen on it is workable. Have called jobs off when not been able to see the 3rd / 4th rail because of snow though........ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shed Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Bet it's fun out there now Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Bet it's fun out there now er, No, not really. just loving having to dig my van out every time i stop because of no grip and cant get going again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 We have not been above freezing for nearly a week now. The American crews always try to lay track at the same temperature. They will lay inflammable rope both side of the web, set fire to it and extinguish and then hook everything up when the specific temperature is reached. In Winniepeg it's been as cold as -45 this past week.... Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trog Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 We call that destressing, but rather than warming the rail up we stretch it with hydraulic rams until it is the length it would be if we did warm it up to 27'C. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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