HSTs At Fishguard? Plus some questions about the Fishguard line.

[Rhydgaled]

I've been Google-ing to try and confirm my assumption that Great Western Trains and later First Great Western services to Fishguard Harbour were run by Intercity 125s. However I have found no images or writen articles that confirm this, so have Intercity 125s actually been used on the Fishguard service or is my assumption incorrect? If these trains have been used on Fishguard services was that a regular occourance at the time? Also, and I doubt this, did BR ever use Intercity 125s on the service?

 

In an old photograph I have seen of Fishguard Harbour station (from GWR times) the station was very busy, therefore I assume the line was double track right through to Whitland, and beyond, at the time. However, I travel to college passing alongside the line in places and the bridges don't appear wide enough for double track, have the original bridges been replaced with single track ones?

[Miss Prism]

There was a brief spell when HSTs worked through and from Pembroke Dock, but I'm not sure about the Fishguard line.

[Raffles]

You are correct as far as the use of HSTs goes. As far as I can remember, a PAD-SWA service would then later form a SWA-FGH service which then returned the next day as the direct FGH-PAD service which arrived in PAD at around 0630.

 

This was the case when I started on the railway (1993) up until a few years ago. All the FGH services now are handled by Arriva Trains Wales I think.

 

 

[Raffles]

There was a brief spell when HSTs worked through and from Pembroke Dock, but I'm not sure about the Fishguard line.

 

Again, I could be wrong but I'm sure I remember on Saturdays, we ran a 09XX HST direct to Pembroke Dock which then promptly returned back to London the same afternoon. Don't remember it running on weekdays though.

[SWT442]

Dunno if it helps but Video125 did a cab-ride video called "The Down Fishguard" which featured a "Fag Packet" HST from Swindon to Fishguard.

 

http://www.video125.co.uk/acatalog/down_fishguard.html

 

Andy.

[Rhydgaled]

Dunno if it helps but Video125 did a cab-ride video called "The Down Fishguard" which featured a "Fag Packet" HST from Swindon to Fishguard.

 

http://www.video125...._fishguard.html

 

Andy.

Thanks, I guess that confirms my assumption.

You are correct as far as the use of HSTs goes. As far as I can remember, a PAD-SWA service would then later form a SWA-FGH service which then returned the next day as the direct FGH-PAD service which arrived in PAD at around 0630.

 

This was the case when I started on the railway (1993) up until a few years ago. All the FGH services now are handled by Arriva Trains Wales I think.

Again, thanks for confirming my assumption. 1993, BR was running Swallow 125s to Fishgaurd then? And yeah, Fishguard services are now run by ATW, so no Intercity 125s anymore. Although:

a fictious picture of course, I based the livery on the one used on the Cardiff - Holyhead loco-hauled train. I'd rather have Merlin or Swallow HSTs return though.

 

There was a brief spell when HSTs worked through and from Pembroke Dock, but I'm not sure about the Fishguard line.

Intercity 125s are still used on the Pembroke Dock run actually, summer Saturdays only though. Here's a shot of the summer Saturday HST to Pembroke Dock at Whitland:

(This particular image was actually taken by me, and was the original image that I photoshoped to make the Arriva liveried HST above.)

[The Stationmaster]

You are correct as far as the use of HSTs goes. As far as I can remember, a PAD-SWA service would then later form a SWA-FGH service which then returned the next day as the direct FGH-PAD service which arrived in PAD at around 0630.

 

This was the case when I started on the railway (1993) up until a few years ago. All the FGH services now are handled by Arriva Trains Wales I think.

 

The Up morning train you mention was the 'boat train' and ran for some years although it was a notoriously poor timekeeper so was cut back to start from Swansea with a dmu connection from Fishguard - for which the HST didn't have to wait!

 

As far as I know the Fishguard line always was basically single beyonmd Lettetrston Jcn although there was a stretch of double track from Fishguard & Goodwick station, or thereabouts.

[Miss Prism]

Intercity 125s are still used on the Pembroke Dock run actually, summer Saturdays only though.

Ok, thanks for that. I wasn't aware that diagram still existed, and I've tended to travel on the line only in winter weekdays. I'm trying to find my current timetable, but I've lost it somewhere!

[two tone green]

Living only 16 miles down the road I can confirm the HST's did run to the harbour to meet the boats. I used to take my son up there to see them and also the CL37 hauled boat trains as well.

 

Dismal place on a winters night at 01.30 though

[Commoner]

You are correct as far as the use of HSTs goes. As far as I can remember, a PAD-SWA service would then later form a SWA-FGH service which then returned the next day as the direct FGH-PAD service which arrived in PAD at around 0630.

 

HSTs started scheduled working to Fishguard from 12th May 1986.

 

The 01.50 (Mon-Sun) and the 14.12 Fishguard-Paddington (Mon-Sat) and 09.30 Paddington-Fishguard (Mon-Sat) and 23.15 Swansea-Fishguard (Mon-Sun) being booked for WR 2 + 7 sets.

 

The 01.50 Fishguard was diagrammed for the set that worked the previous day??™s 16.00 Paddington-Swansea, which after fuelling at Landore worked the 23.15 Swansea to Fishguard and back to Paddington on the 01.50 Fishguard. On arrival at Paddington it took up workings on the London-Bristol route.

 

The 09.30 Paddington-Fishguard and 14.12 return were diagrammed for the set off the 05.50 Swansea-Paddington due 08.45.

 

I know this arrangement or similar continued for a number of years but can't tell you when the Fishguard working stopped.

 

Incidentally the August 1978 edition of Modern Railways recorded that on 27th May 1978 the 21.13 Swansea-Fishguard and 01.10 Fishguard-Paddington were worked by an HST. Anybody have any further details?

 

Commoner

[two tone green]

Forgot to say. I have the DVD mentioned above and if you want to borrow it I will send it on to you.

[Miss Prism]

That's interesting. I didn't realise passenger trains actually went down the dock branch - it's not a long walk from the station to the ferry entrance, really. The path of the dock branch through the town is still traceable, but there are no signs of track on it now. But there are a few remains of the end of the branch within the dock area itself, and here's a couple of snaps from early this year.

 

 

[Raffles]

I know this arrangement or similar continued for a number of years but can't tell you when the Fishguard working stopped.

 

Good to know I can still remember some things. I'll take a punt and say the FGW dropped the FGH workings maybe 3-4 years ago?

 

I seem to recall the 0150 FGH-PAD was changed to start at SWA at 0330 and then later it was moved to start at Bristol Parkway at 0500?

 

Incidentally... during the early 90's the Sunday working was covered by loco and coaches as I took a trip to FGH and back with 47715. I'll try and dig out the photos from the run-round at the harbour. Good day out with a full rake of declassified 1st class Mk2 aircons.

[two tone green]

If I remember rightly, the boat train out of Paddington was not an advertised service but it was used by those in the know.

 

If I missed the last service to H'west I would use the boat train rather than drive the hundreds of miles to St. Davids.

 

After doing a 13 hour sector from the far east to Heathrow the slow train west was just right for a sleep followed by a taxi home. B)

[great central]

Good to know I can still remember some things. I'll take a punt and say the FGW dropped the FGH workings maybe 3-4 years ago?

 

I seem to recall the 0150 FGH-PAD was changed to start at SWA at 0330 and then later it was moved to start at Bristol Parkway at 0500?

 

Incidentally... during the early 90's the Sunday working was covered by loco and coaches as I took a trip to FGH and back with 47715. I'll try and dig out the photos from the run-round at the harbour. Good day out with a full rake of declassified 1st class Mk2 aircons.

 

Went for a ride to FGH and back from Whitland one afternoon while on hoilday in the area, it seemed a bit odd to have an HST picking up and returning the token at Clarbeston Road. Must have been 15 years ago, son still on half fare if I remember correctly, He's 30 next year.

Took a few photos, darned if I know where they are though.

The class 37 hauled service to Fishguard must be at least 4 years ago by my reckoning, I have some pictures taken in 2005 towards the end of the Rhymney loco hauls, which used a loco and stock from those.

[Rhydgaled]

So now I know for sure, Intercity 125s were run to Fishguard, still a little fuzzy on the issue of double track but anyway, thanks everyone. I have a new question, what's the speed limit on the line? The Wales RUS only gives a range (40-75mph) and I expected the limit to be towards the higher end of that. However I've been trying to plan a route to Havant that's faster than the car and according to the National Rail website the time taken for Fishguard - Newport is somthing like 2hr 50min. I just did a rough measurement on Google Earth (almost to the river Severn, but my lines were straighter than the railway) and came up with roughly 140 miles, I make that an average speed of just 46mph, with only 4 station stops en-route!

[Ramblin Rich]

Miss Prism - those pics of the dock lines are interesting! I'm sure no passenger trains ever actally made it into the dockyard area - terminated at Pembroke Dock station. Seem to recall the dock lines were pretty much disued from the late '60s anyway.

With regard to track - the Fishguard branch is single track from the junction at Clarbeston Road, but there is a loop at Letterston junction where the line for Trecwn MOD depot branches off. Don't know the current state of play with traffic there I'm afraid. The GWR did quite a bit of work on the line in the early 1900s but i don't think doubling the track throughout was ever considered feasible.

I always thought Fishguard was a rather marginal operation, just 2 trains a day doesn't seem sufficient to justify a line - it's amazing it survived really!

[Fat Controller]

So now I know for sure, Intercity 125s were run to Fishguard, still a little fuzzy on the issue of double track but anyway, thanks everyone. I have a new question, what's the speed limit on the line? The Wales RUS only gives a range (40-75mph) and I expected the limit to be towards the higher end of that. However I've been trying to plan a route to Havant that's faster than the car and according to the National Rail website the time taken for Fishguard - Newport is somthing like 2hr 50min. I just did a rough measurement on Google Earth (almost to the river Severn, but my lines were straighter than the railway) and came up with roughly 140 miles, I make that an average speed of just 46mph, with only 4 station stops en-route!

I think everything west of Swansea is 60 mph max these days- I remember how scary it used to be when DMU drivers used to try making up time down Cockett Bank, followed by a very hard brake application for Gowerton.

The SWML west of Cardiff is largely 90 mph, with a few bits of 100 mph

Newport is at 158.50 miles from Paddington (original mileage via Gloucester), whilst Fishguard Harbour is at 288.27, which gives a mileage of just shy of 130.

The Fishguard line was single track from Clarbeston Road to Goodwick, though with the formation built to double track standards. Between Letterson and Clynderwen, there was another longer route via Puncheston and Rosebush, which the RAF used to perfect their railway demolition techniques during WW2. Part still survives at the western end, serving the now-defunct Trecwn Naval Stores Depot.

The GWR once had great hopes for Fishguard, even planning a 'cut-off' from the Swansea District Line at Llangennech to near Carmarthen- they had hoped that transatlantic liners bound for Liverpool would off-load their mail at Fishguard, thereby saving a day. It proved to be less than practical, as the liners had to unload into tenders (as they did at Plymouth), but the sea was a little rough at times.....

[Rhydgaled]

With regard to track - the Fishguard branch is single track from the junction at Clarbeston Road, but there is a loop at Letterston junction where the line for Trecwn MOD depot branches off. Don't know the current state of play with traffic there I'm afraid. The GWR did quite a bit of work on the line in the early 1900s but i don't think doubling the track throughout was ever considered feasible.

I thought I saw a passing loop at the Trecwn junction on Google earth last night, thanks for confirming that.

 

I think everything west of Swansea is 60 mph max these days- I remember how scary it used to be when DMU drivers used to try making up time down Cockett Bank, followed by a very hard brake application for Gowerton. The SWML west of Cardiff is largely 90 mph, with a few bits of 100 mph

Newport is at 158.50 miles from Paddington (original mileage via Gloucester), whilst Fishguard Harbour is at 288.27, which gives a mileage of just shy of 130.

The Fishguard line was single track from Clarbeston Road to Goodwick, though with the formation built to double track standards. Between Letterson and Clynderwen, there was another longer route via Puncheston and Rosebush, which the RAF used to perfect their railway demolition techniques during WW2. Part still survives at the western end, serving the now-defunct Trecwn Naval Stores Depot.

Thanks, useful information. So 60mph max speed limit, that still dosen't quite explain why the Fishguard train only averages 46 with only 4 stops though, the East Coast travel planner even shows the Carmarthen - Cardiff journey time as 3 miniutes slower than a train that calls at several more stations, including Swansea. Also interesting that the Maencloclog line was destroyed by the RAF, not just pulled up to make use of the materials.

 

On the subject of double track...

In an old photograph I have seen of Fishguard Harbour station (from GWR times) the station was very busy, therefore I assume the line was double track right through to Whitland, and beyond, at the time. However, I travel to college passing alongside the line in places and the bridges don't appear wide enough for double track, have the original bridges been replaced with single track ones?

I think I saw this photograph at Scolton Manor and I've just found similar pictures (perhaps even the same one) online, looks like there are at least 3 passenger platforms, maybe even as many as 5, plus alot of frieght sidings. Here's one of those pictures, this one isn't the one I saw at Scolton but have a look at the other images too. With that amount of traffic I find it hard to beleive the line wasn't double track at the time. Interesting you all seem to think it was only single.

[Fat Controller]

I thought I saw a passing loop at the Trecwn junction on Google earth last night, thanks for confirming that.

 

Thanks, useful information. So 60mph max speed limit, that still dosen't quite explain why the Fishguard train only averages 46 with only 4 stops though, the East Coast travel planner even shows the Carmarthen - Cardiff journey time as 3 miniutes slower than a train that calls at several more stations, including Swansea. Also interesting that the Maencloclog line was destroyed by the RAF, not just pulled up to make use of the materials.

 

On the subject of double track... I think I saw this photograph at Scolton Manor and I've just found similar pictures (perhaps even the same one) online, looks like there are at least 3 passenger platforms, maybe even as many as 5, plus alot of frieght sidings. Here's one of those pictures, this one isn't the one I saw at Scolton but have a look at the other images too. With that amount of traffic I find it hard to beleive the line wasn't double track at the time. Interesting you all seem to think it was only single.

There are a couple of quite severe speed restrictions, I believe, on the former lifting bridges at Carmarthen and Briton Ferry, whilst there is a restriction on the south > west curve at Landore as well if the train goes via Swansea High St. If the maximum speed is only 60 mph, it wouldn't take much to drop the average to 46 mph. The HST set also has slower acceleration from stops than DMUs, as anyone leaving Paddington will testify- each stop would add about 5 minutes to the time. The timings may also have some slack built in to cope with sailing times.

The diagrams in R H Clark's 'A Historical Survey of Selected Great Western Stations- Volume 2' shows a maximum of four platform faces at the peak of development. The associated signalling plan for Fishguard and Goodwick, dated 1910, shows the line towards Clarbeston Road as being single- as this was at the height of the port's activities, I would suggest that this indicates that the line was always single track.

A well-operated single track line can carry appreciable levels of traffic, especially if departures are 'flighted' as they would be in a situation like this- a pair, or more, of trains might leave soon after the arrival of a boat, with the interval between them being the time taken to clear the single line. If there was an intermediate block post, or special operating arrangements, then it would be even less- the best I've seen was a single track line in one of the Baltic States which managed 40 daily departures in each direction over a lengthy single track section, whilst I would expect to see 24 or more trains during an overnight shift at work with planned SLW.

[two tone green]

Rhydgaled,

 

I have the book R H Clark's 'A Historical Survey of Selected Great Western Stations- Volume 2 if you are interested. I know from the PM's we have exchanged that you are not far from me so happy to pass it on along with the other volumes in the series.

 

Also have you seen. Railways of Pembrokeshire. An A4 hard back book that's been out a while but I have only just got around to getting it. In fact not allowed to read it until the 25th but happy to share it as well once I have had a read.

 

Fishguard used to be quite a busy place with a reasonable loco sheds etc at Dwig before the line ran on to the harbour.

 

On my fictitious layout the line west from Whitland splits at H'west to Milford Haven and two loops to Fishguard. One loop the faster route to Fishguard direct to St.Davids and the other loop via Broadhaven, Newgale and Solva before rejoining the main route at St.Davids before going north. The north route is split as well with one route going direct on the 'flat' via Mathry and the other loop via Letterson.

 

Very complicated but the track layout for the station allows some interesting train movements and train types.

 

Pembrokeshire has had a very varied industrial history from high quality anthracite coal mining to slat, shale, ship building, lighthouse building to a very healthy agricultural following as well. And there is the tourist as as well !!!!!

 

St.Davids was to have a line to it as well and the Grove hotel was going to be the Station hotel. The land around it is flat ready for the tracks to arrive.

[Edwin_m]

Trains can't pass at Trecwn. The loop is only for run-round and "locking in" a train for the depot, which as somebody has pointed out is out of use anyway. However when I went by last year the loop track looked as if it had just been repaired.

 

There is a local pressure group lobbying for a more frequent service to Fishguard plus re-opening of the Goodwick station. There are several sailings without rail connections and Goodwick could be a better railhead than Haverfordwest for some of the local population. It would need funding from Welsh Assembly Government and another DMU for ATW to run it with - both I guess rather improbable at present.

 

Incidentally the existing workings don't require any extra stock, as the units work around Cardiff at peak times and would otherwise be standing idle during the middle of the day and the night.

 

Incidentally the Fishguard trains often run via the Swansea District line, probably to keep crew route knowledge up for when it is needed for diversions. The timings seem pretty slack - our 158 waited 10min or so to rejoin the main line at Briton Ferry and was a good bit early into Cardiff.

[Rhydgaled]

Trains can't pass at Trecwn. The loop is only for run-round and "locking in" a train for the depot, which as somebody has pointed out is out of use anyway. However when I went by last year the loop track looked as if it had just been repaired.

Why couldn't it be used for passing trains? Interesting to hear it's been repaired, can't think what their planning to use it for unless they are introducing new services and it can be used as a passing place.

 

There is a local pressure group lobbying for a more frequent service to Fishguard plus re-opening of the Goodwick station. There are several sailings without rail connections and Goodwick could be a better railhead than Haverfordwest for some of the local population. It would need funding from Welsh Assembly Government and another DMU for ATW to run it with - both I guess rather improbable at present.

 

Incidentally the existing workings don't require any extra stock, as the units work around Cardiff at peak times and would otherwise be standing idle during the middle of the day and the night.

 

Incidentally the Fishguard trains often run via the Swansea District line, probably to keep crew route knowledge up for when it is needed for diversions. The timings seem pretty slack - our 158 waited 10min or so to rejoin the main line at Briton Ferry and was a good bit early into Cardiff.

I was in a cafe in Fishguard some time ago and they had a 'Fishguard Trains Petition' which I signed, guess that's the group you're talking about. Also, why would they need an additional DMU? Some time ago I had a look on the web to see where the Arriva units were used and if I remember rightly 158s (what you said you traveled on) aren't used on the local peak Cardiff service anyway (I think it said they were used on the Aberystyth/Porthmadog lines). There's also the Class 57 loco-hauled train from Cardiff to Holyhead, if they could get hold of a single DVT for the end of the train (or bypass both Swansea and Carmarthen) maybe they could extend that service to Fishguard. I thought the best way of going about it though was to add a second sprinter to the Pembroke Dock service and spilt it at Whitland (so there are no additional service running through the single track bottleneck at Gowerton).

[The Stationmaster]

The section from Clarbeston Road to Letterston Jcn was singled in the 1970s and the signalbox at Letterston Jcn was closed at the same time (not quite sure when)with a ground frame operated loop retained at Letterston Jcn to allow the Trecwn trip to runround.

 

The section from Letterston to Fishguard & Goodwick was always single as far as I can trace but I haven't got the Cooke diagrams for the area so can't be absolutely certain on that. Revision - the line was double as far as Manorowen, 1m57ch west of Letterston Jcn, thence single to Fishguard & Goodwick (2m 41ch) thence double to Fishguard Harbour. Incidentally the 'bottom end of the line has a number of permanent speed restrictions down as low as 40 mph in places and (addition) gradients as steep as 1 in 50.

 

The lack of a crossing facility at Letterston is not much of a hindrance on capacity but the signalling system and lack of crossing facility at Fishguard is. However with no station at Fishguard & Goodwick there would seem to be little point in running a local train service down the branch! Even with the present signalling an hourly interval service would present no difficulties assuming there was actually enough traffic to support it - which I doubt.

[Miss Prism]

Even with the present signalling an hourly interval service would present no difficulties assuming there was actually enough traffic to support it - which I doubt.

Yes, there's the rub, Mike. It's an interesting stock pattern though, with the Fishguard trains (2 up, 2 down, per day) being 3-car units (rather sparsely occupied), the Milford trains being 2-car (150s primarily), the Virgin Camarthen semi-fast trains being 2-car (usually very well populated out of Swansea High Street, and often choc a block), and typically a single car 153 (also often packed) for the all stations Pembroke Dock service. I have seen 150s on the Pembroke train occasionally, but the usual picture at Swansea High Street on all the westbounds is quite a scrum as passengers try to get a seat.