Chrislock Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Hi folks. Who out there has done this, and how did you go about it? I can't see where you'd attach the wires, and space for the decoder seems tight.. Any help most gratefully received as always. Many thanks Chris. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold bcnPete Posted January 28, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 28, 2012 Hi Chris, I believe in BRM, Nigel Birkin did a step by step article on fitting one to a Farish 25 and a Farish 45... I recall it required some cutting and filing of the chassis block... Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kveldulf Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 I've just done mine. I used a digitrax DZ125, which fits quite neatly beneath the body shell. You do need to do a bit of filing to isolate the motor, but its easy enough. See this thread for details: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/381-graham-farish-split-chassis-dcc-guide/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrislock Posted January 28, 2012 Author Share Posted January 28, 2012 Many thanks Kveldulf, thats exactly what I was looking for. I can figure most of it out from that. If you could just confirm the wiring, as the photos are not so clear: Orange to starboard motor terminal; grey to port motor terminal Red to starboard chassis; black to port chassis Yellow / white not used.? Many thanks Chris . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kveldulf Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Yep - here's mine. As you can see, I just clipped back the unused yellow, white and blue leads. I also snipped off the little capacitor, and soldered the red and black wires to the tags that remained. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrislock Posted January 28, 2012 Author Share Posted January 28, 2012 Thanks. I haven't noticed a capacitor on my 25, so will either resort to your idea of attaching the red and black to the securing screws, or find another way of soldering them to the chassis blocks. I intend using a CTeletroniks decoder as I aready have one. which I hope will fit on one end of the chassis block above the cab, secured by double sided tape. Did you have any trouble with those wires lying across there? I know you said you cut a groove in the side - but what about the top? Regards, Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kveldulf Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 There are a couple of little notches on either side of the chassis (which don't show up very well in the pic) that the grey and orange wires fit into, stopping the sides of the body shell from bowing out. The wires on top of the chassis aren't a problem - the shell sits snugly on top and there seems to be plenty of room for the decoder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrislock Posted February 14, 2012 Author Share Posted February 14, 2012 Thanks for the input. The CT chip has gone into a class 24, as I bottled the 25 just for now. I have another question : Is there a sound chip for the 24/25 and how is it fitted? Is it worth it, in terms of sound volume and quality, in 2mm scale? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold bcnPete Posted February 14, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 14, 2012 Thanks for the input. The CT chip has gone into a class 24, as I bottled the 25 just for now. I have another question : Is there a sound chip for the 24/25 and how is it fitted? Is it worth it, in terms of sound volume and quality, in 2mm scale? Chris - Check this - Certainly is available...looks and sounds fantastic...I just need to ponder robbing a bank now... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrislock Posted February 14, 2012 Author Share Posted February 14, 2012 Chris - Check this - Certainly is available...looks and sounds fantastic...I just need to ponder robbing a bank now... That sounds just like the 4mm version, and makes me wonder what it actually sounds like for real. The speaker must be so tiny - mobile phone size, and where do you house it? The loco detail is also fantastic, though I think you'd have to lose some of that pipework to fit a DG. Has anyone done sound themselves in 2mm though? By the way Pete, that loco is not especially expensive... http://www.h-r-f.com/triebfahrz.html Though granted they are HO and limited editions! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 That sounds just like the 4mm version, and makes me wonder what it actually sounds like for real. The speaker must be so tiny - mobile phone size, and where do you house it? I think that one has the speaker in the fuel tank area. But its had most of the chassis block completely re-built, re-machined, etc.. by a chap with access to some fairly exotic materials and machinery. He's very good at what he does, the work takes ages, hence the price tag, but I think its possible to match what he was doing a couple of years ago without such drastic work as newer and smaller components have appeared. The loco detail is also fantastic, though I think you'd have to lose some of that pipework to fit a DG. Has anyone done sound themselves in 2mm though? I've not done a 24, but I know how I'd approach it. I know others who have done 24's. I have done a 37 and a 47, though longer, they have similar amounts of space. Decoder - essentially a choice between ESU LokSound Micro V4 and Zimo MX646 or MX648. I'd probably use the LokSound as that opens up rather more sound project suppliers, though there's nothing in it in sound output, and the Zimo has far more features, better motor control and more complete documentation. Also, though the paper specifications of the decoders suggest the MX648 is the smallest, the LokSound seems to be less thick when it comes to fitting it - I think the insulating sleeve ESU use is thinner material than that Zimo use. Basic approach - remove the Farish PCB to create space and expect to hardwire. You'll need resistors and ideally anti-flicker capacitors for the lights if you want to keep those, probably best done with a few surface mount resistors on a scrap of PCB in a spare bit of space. And, as its now a hard-wire, might as well get properly independent lights, optionally add cab lights, etc. Speaker choice - three main options: ESU (and others) 13mm round speaker, often this is a bit of a challenge to fit. CT/Zimo "sugar cube" speaker, surprisingly capable and VERY LOUD, so may need to turn volume down in chip. Zimo "extra small sugar cube", smaller than its bigger brother, and looses a little bit of performance for the size gains. The two cube speakers can be separated from their chamber, and a new chamber fabricated (the original CT version of the cube used to be delivered without the chamber glued to the resonator, which made modification of the chamber before fitting a lot more obviously possible). Speaker placement - three main places to look. First - in the body or roof of loco. Either with speaker and chamber fixed to chassis, or optionally build a chamber into the roof of the body with speaker in it (I quite like this method, using just the plate from the CT/Zimo cube speaker, and making the chamber walls from thick plasticard, the body then becomes part of the resonating chamber). Second - in the fuel tank area, this may mean cutting away some chassis block material, so make sure you think before cutting. Third, if stuck, is to loose the cab detail at one end, but this is not usually necessary. - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrislock Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 Thanks Nigel for the very detailed advice. I notice that loksound don't actually produce sounds for the 24 yet anyway. I would like to hear the results of sound in 2mm for myself may before outlaying what is a considerable additional sum on one loco, but have saved your info for hopefully previous use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Thanks Nigel for the very detailed advice. I notice that loksound don't actually produce sounds for the 24 yet anyway. In ESU's case their UK importer, SouthWestDigital offer a range of sounds to all their UK dealers. And, for both ESU or Zimo, there are numerous third-party sound providers offer sounds which are loaded onto the chips; I'd tend to look at Coastal DCC, DC Kits, Digitrains and Howes, though there are others. Class 24 is available on ESU LokSound chips from at least three different providers - I've only checked three, and they had different recordings, so there is quite a choice. Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrislock Posted February 18, 2012 Author Share Posted February 18, 2012 Just thought I'd add a photo of the completed DCC conversion, which now sports 7.5mm 2FS drop in wheels, as recommended for this model, and a few modifications to the body. No pipes now, they got in the way of the DG so had to come off! Just one thing - the motor has become incredibly noisy at crawl speeds.. any suggestions? It has been oiled fairly recently.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Which chip has been fitted ? If it's a CT, consult the article on the 2mm website on how to adjust them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrislock Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 Thanks Nigel ( again!) Will do. It is a CT DCX75 which I believe was recommended on the VAG. A further question for DCC experts : In my NCE set up, I have set the chip to operate on analogue too. This is mainly because my grandson likes to fly-shunt with the 25 on my little test track, and I think the Cab might be a little complicated for a 6 year old! When I reconnect the Combi to the track, the loco does not respond for a good quarter turn now and then suddenly accelerates. Is this to do with the way the CVs are set up - ie do they influence the analogue performance, or is the reality that fitting the chip itself has reduced the analogue function? Many thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold traction Posted February 19, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 19, 2012 Hi Chris, This was one of the first Class 24's Martin converted. Yes it was expensive, but well worth it in my opinion and when I bought it a few years ago there was nothing like it. The following photos show the position of the Loksound Micro decoder 3.5. You can also see how he managed to fit resisitors at each end to allow the body to be easily taken on/off. If you can make it to Mansfield exhibition on 3/4 March I shall take it with me so you can hear it. This also has cab lights fitted at both ends, which are independantly controlled. He also used different value resistors for the white and red LED's as I think the reds draw more power. Cheers Ian Oh...forgot I had done this, click to watch the video! Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Thanks Nigel ( again!) Will do. It is a CT DCX75 which I believe was recommended on the VAG. A further question for DCC experts : In my NCE set up, I have set the chip to operate on analogue too. This is mainly because my grandson likes to fly-shunt with the 25 on my little test track, and I think the Cab might be a little complicated for a 6 year old! When I reconnect the Combi to the track, the loco does not respond for a good quarter turn now and then suddenly accelerates. Is this to do with the way the CVs are set up - ie do they influence the analogue performance, or is the reality that fitting the chip itself has reduced the analogue function? When running any decoder on analogue, what happens is this: As the volts move from 0v to around 4v, nothing will happen. At around 4 or 5v, the chip has enough volts to work itself. As the volts rise further, the chip can then use those to determine what speed to run at. So, this is why nothing happens on the lower part of the knob. I recommend either teaching your son how to use the PowerCab, or get one of NCE's little engineer's throttles as a second controller, they have fewer buttons (or a computer interface, and let him drive with your smart-phone - perhaps not with a six year old !!). - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tequila Sunrise Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 My impression is that adults find complex controllers more of a challenge than kids do Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrislock Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 Nigel - I thought that might be the case..c'est la vie. I don't intend to outlay any more on controls just yet. I bought the NCE primarily as a cost-efficient way of learning about DCC, and I may not even stay with this system if I get converted to future exclusive use of DCC. The addition of acceleration,deceleration and momentum might prove just a tad much for my grandson anyway! I have played with the CVs as suggested in your article on the website. Interestingly, if I set cv9 to anything but 003, the loco doesn't respond. Similarly cv137 was set to 134 on startup, and changing this to 128 also stopped operation. I also found it did not like me going straight into the CV menu to change things - not in 9 anyway, so it was necessary to go in through the standard menu, which involved the process of identifying the chip and address. Probably questions for the NCE forum. CV51-2 did seem to make a difference, though cv51 seems to work best at 10, quite a low value according to your notes. Traction - Thanks - that is very impressive, though by the audio hum I can tell the volume was up quite a lot? I can see why the conversion work is expensive - there's quite a lot of alterations to the chassis by the look of it. Regards, Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I have played with the CVs as suggested in your article on the website. Interestingly, if I set cv9 to anything but 003, the loco doesn't respond. Similarly cv137 was set to 134 on startup, and changing this to 128 also stopped operation. I also found it did not like me going straight into the CV menu to change things - not in 9 anyway, so it was necessary to go in through the standard menu, which involved the process of identifying the chip and address. Probably questions for the NCE forum. CV51-2 did seem to make a difference, though cv51 seems to work best at 10, quite a low value according to your notes. Its possible that CT have changed things in the chips (again) and not changed their documentation to reflect the new situation. This is not unknown, but I've just double checked the Tran (CT) website, and the documentation in German for the DCX75 (and its replacement DCX76) hasn't changed in these areas. Are you absolutely certain that the programming is working correctly - the PowerCab's programming modes are not the easiest to understand. And, if using the programming track to read values, the CT decoder will only respond in "direct" mode. I find it very surprising that CV9 can only take one value; that feature of CT firmware hasn't changed in ages, and a value of 003 would be illegal under traditional CT use of CV9. Further, I find it very surprising that CV137 has the value which is the default value of CV9 (134). If you were to have set CV9 to 128, then that is an illegal value, and not working isn't surprising. If you can get the loco to someone with a reliable programmer, such as a Sprog, and full CV listing, that might help me understand whether CT have changed things again, or if its a problem in how the PowerCab works in programming modes. - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrislock Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 Nigel, I have gone back to check the reference manual ( always a good idea I know!) after what you said about "programming track" struck a chord. I had followed the manual which suggests progtrak method for initial setup. However, I have tried putting in the cv values while programming on "main", and they seem to work. Is this what you mean by direct programming? I think I need to pay a visit to the NCE forum! Regards Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Chris, No, "direct" is one of the several ways a programming track can communicate with a decoder. Other include "page" and "register". The CT will take programming on main instructions (as well as "direct" mode on the programming track), but in common with all other decoders you cannot "read" when using programming on the main. Are you saying that when you use "programming on the main", the decoder is now behaving in a manner consistant with my article on the 2mm website ? If so, then you are most of the way to tuning a decoder, just keep notes of what settings you have made. - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrislock Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 Hi Nigel, I have since found a setting which is designated "direct" programming - it is not very clear ( to me anyway) in the blurb, and is not hidden exactly but not obvious in the handset menus, but with what you've told me it begins to make sense. I have tried putting that 003 value into CV9 directly and the motor whines but nothing happens. Switched to 134 the loco moves hesitantly at low speeds but on 192 runs much more smoothly - though not a touch on the 24, but as Alan above points out, the motor in the 25 is a very different beast. So yes, I think I am getting somewhere, because I have also found that boosting cv2 to 50 makes it much more controllable at low speeds. Many thanks, Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poe Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 just been reading this thread fantastic, which sound decoder should i use for my farish N class 37? also how do you program the sounds into it? got a feeling its going to be expensive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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