jjnewitt Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 I wonder if anyone has any, or can point me in the direction of, information on the Fishguard to Paddington boat train. Specifically for the 1963/4 and 1964/5 Winter timetables but any point in the Sixties would be great. I'm interested in what locos were used to haul the trains and also the make up of the coaching stock. I've seen pictures of the train in the fifties, courtesy of John Hodge's wonderful books on the South Wales Mainline and 'The Red Dragon and other old friends' and it seems that there was an engine change at Swansea on west bound services where the train would have reversed. I've only seen pictures of the east bound trains on the Swansea District Line and these had Canton engines at the head though presumably there was an engine change at some point, Cardiff or Felin Fran. Was this still the case into the diesel days or did locos work all the way through? I imagine that Westerns were common on this service at this time and Brush type 4s maybe (when they had entered service) but from which sheds? Would anyone happen to have any information about the makeup of the train? I know there would have been Full Brakes and I've also seen Siphons at the head for the luggage but what about the rest of the train? Would it have conisted of open carriages? Presumably there would be a resaurant car as well. A complete formation would be amazing but any information at all would be fantastic. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 The formation of the 1700 Paddington - Fishguard Harbour i[1F55] is given in the 1965-66 Paddington station working book which Robert Carroll [robertcwp of this parish] posted on his BR coaching stock Yahoo group a while back: full brake, 4 corridor seconds, restaurant buffet, open first, 2 corridor first, corridor composite, brake second and one additional vehicle some days of the week - a GUV on Tuesdays and Thursdays and a corridor second on Fridays. I would not want to swear as to the traction but I'd guess that it would be either a Western or a 47 by then. There were other Padd - Fishguards at this time with similar formations. Quite a contrast to the 150 that you get now! Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjnewitt Posted January 29, 2012 Author Share Posted January 29, 2012 Thanks for the information Chris, very helpful. I'm not sure why I thought there'd be a lot more open coaches in the formation. It is certainly different from the train today! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Traction in the mid-1960s would have been 'Thousands'- Brush Type 4s were rare west of Swansea until the Gulf oils started in 1966-7. Most of my classrooms at Llanelli Grammar had a fine view of the main line, to the chagrin of some of my teachers- 'Brian; if you don't pay attention, you'll end up working on the railways..' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjnewitt Posted January 30, 2012 Author Share Posted January 30, 2012 Hi Brian, It seems a little odd that the Brush Type 4s were rare west of swansea before then given that there were more of them than Westerns at both Canton and Landore. Were the two type 4 classes used differently by the depots? It would be interesting to find out if there were any engine changes on the services. If the down train called at Swansea then there obviously would have been one there. I had a search on Flikr and there was a picture of an up service in the early sixties hauled by a King which would have meant an engine change at Cardiff. How long did it take for the traditional steam loco diagrams to be replaced on express services? Sounded like a great place to go to school! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 The first diesels to be used on South Wales expresses were the Hymeks. Type 3s - the equivalent of a Hall - replacing Kings on heavy trains was never going to be a good idea and it took its toll on the Hymeks' transmissions. What happened after that and when is something where I need to refresh my memory! Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjnewitt Posted January 30, 2012 Author Share Posted January 30, 2012 I know the poor Hymeks! It wasn't a great idea was it. Wonder who was responsible for that decision. The divers who got told they had a 70xx and found they had a Hymek instead of a Castle must have wondered if they were going to get back home! I remember reading somewhere that the diagrams for the London trains from South Wales were changed at the beginning of the 1963/4 winter timetable after the Westerns had been introduced but I don't know in what way. Presumably the timings were speeded up a bit. I wonder if there was a change then to more out and back workings rather than cyclic diagrams or if that happened a bit later? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Hi Brian, It seems a little odd that the Brush Type 4s were rare west of swansea before then given that there were more of them than Westerns at both Canton and Landore. Were the two type 4 classes used differently by the depots? It would be interesting to find out if there were any engine changes on the services. If the down train called at Swansea then there obviously would have been one there. I had a search on Flikr and there was a picture of an up service in the early sixties hauled by a King which would have meant an engine change at Cardiff. How long did it take for the traditional steam loco diagrams to be replaced on express services? Sounded like a great place to go to school! The Westerns covered more of the passenger diagrams than the Brush west of Swansea at that time. Brushes seemed to be largely confined to the oil trains from Milford Haven, and some of theses were worked by un-boilered D18xx ones from Immingham for some reason. Westerns also covered the Milk. 'Meks worked the parcels and newspapers, along with mixed freights, and '68ers' the coal trains. The Brush at Canton and Landore covered some passenger diagrams, and an awful lot of inter-regional freight; the result was that the steam-heating boilers on some were only used on excursions- this meant they weren't as reliable as they could be, as we used to discover when 'Mystexs' had to be re-engined either before departure on en-route. I only wish I'd made more notes, in the manner of Brian R, on what worked when and where; at the time, we thought the coal, oil and steel would always be there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbb Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Brush class 47's (type 4's) did work west of Swansea; on holiday in Tenby in 1965 I saw one of Llandores working on a Pembroke Dock passenger working with 5/6 Maroon mark 1 coaches. The (daily ?) pick up goods was in the hands of a green class 37, also from Landore. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Brush class 47's (type 4's) did work west of Swansea; on holiday in Tenby in 1965 I saw one of Llandores working on a Pembroke Dock passenger working with 5/6 Maroon mark 1 coaches. The (daily ?) pick up goods was in the hands of a green class 37, also from Landore. They did work west of Swansea; they were just much less common until the Motorails started, but even after that the majority of turns were 'Thousands'. This is based on looking out of the window, during term time, for seven years- I wasn't such a habitué of the lineside outside of term, as my mother would find me jobs to do.. There was one turn that was booked to a boiler-fitted 68er, IIRC- the Milford- Paddington sleeper, which also conveyed a TPO section (which was Carmarthen- Bristol, I think)- I wonder if this 68er also served for the trips from Whitland to Pembroke Dock and Milford Haven, as the mixed freights passing Llanelli were all 'Meks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Hope you don't mind me tagging this to your post Justin, but does anyone have a list of four character headcodes for services around the west Wales area please around 1963 -65 period. I have the Ian Allan headcode book priced at two shillings and sixpence that gives some hints at to what they may be but it lacks the fine detail as such. So anything Fishguard, Milford Haven, Haverfordwest, Neyland area to Whitland, Carmarthen, Llanelli, Swansea, Cardiff, Bristol and London. Also any local services that only ran within the west Wales area and did not make it to even Carmarthen. Not sure if there ever was a service from say Milford to Fishguard as it would involve reversing at Clarbeston Road which is the junction with the Fishguard line. The armaments depot at Trecwn may have warranted a service from Milford to there but I suspect it would make more sense for it to come from the Pembroke Dock side and the naval dock yard there. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Trecwn was served by the Fishguard trip, I believe; at the time Fishguard would have dealt a lot in fresh produce (meat and eggs) from Ireland, whilst there was also coal to Fishguard and Goodwick, along with fuel oil for the ferry (conveyed in 14t unfitted tanks into the 1970s- see P60 of 'Heyday of the Hymeks'). I suspect, but have no evidence, that the trips from Milford Haven, Pembroke Dock and Fishguard ran to Whitland, there to be split into a fitted train and an unfitted one; certainly, there was a Hymek-worked 'fast-fitted' that used to pass Pwll about 16:00, just after the Up Milk. Whitland certainly had a pilot loco, an 03, in the mid-1960s, which would have been hard to justify if there wasn't any shunting to do. At the same time, Fishguard had an 08- it must have been a two-shift job getting it there from Landore. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Thanks Brian It never fails to amaze me just how much railway there was down my way here in West Wales and the complexity of some of it when crammed into such small fingers of land around the likes of Fishguard and Neyland. The books Railways of Pembrokeshire and Carmarthen to Fishguard give great insight into just there was down here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Not sure if there ever was a service from say Milford to Fishguard as it would involve reversing at Clarbeston Road which is the junction with the Fishguard line. There was in the 1961-62 winter timetable which is the most recent one I have. The 9.35 am off Milford Haven reversed at Clarbeston Road and arrived at Fishguard Harbour at 10.51. No return working was shown. The workmen's service to Trecwn ran to and from Fishguard and Goodwick at this time. Whether there was ever a service from Milford Haven I know not. Some locals ran from Neyland to Milford Haven but, apparently, not from Milford Haven to Neyland. Baffling! Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Hi Chris, Yes, I knew about the odd services down west. Very odd as you say. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Thanks Brian It never fails to amaze me just how much railway there was down my way here in West Wales and the complexity of some of it when crammed into such small fingers of land around the likes of Fishguard and Neyland. The books Railways of Pembrokeshire and Carmarthen to Fishguard give great insight into just there was down here. There was a heck of a lot; even now, there's quite a lot remaining, considering how relatively sparse the population is around some bits. Imagine if the Great Western's dream of having Transatlantic liners call at Fishguard had come to fruition.. My father used to talk about plans for a westward extension of the Swansea District line, direct to Carmarthen and avoiding Llanelli and the highly curved bit around Ferryside. Apparently, this was still being mooted into the 1930s. The three RN faciilties around the area (I'm excluding RNAS Brawdy) had very different functions:- Trecwn was a WW2 facility, intended to hold munitions imported from the USA, and held there rather than using the Bristol Channel ports, which were very vulnerable to air attack. I'm not sure what was held there in later years; perhaps it was one of those facilities where the personnel dreaded a visit from HQ who might discover how little they did. Milford specialised in mines until relatively recent times. Pembroke Dock had been an important shipyard for the RN, but by WW2 served to fuel and resupply ships protecting convoys. Part of the base was used by the RAF for the Sunderlands protecting the Western Approaches in WW2- one was kept there as a museum piece into the mid-1960s. In the 1960s, the traffic for the Training Range at Castlemartin was handled at the station. I do wonder how much the survival of the Milford sleeper was to do with the need to transport military personnel to the area. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Where are you Brian? Sorry Justin, this is really getting away from your OP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Happy Hippo Posted January 31, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 31, 2012 I can only add a bit of nostalgia to this thread. We had a family holiday in 1962 to Fishguard. We stayed at Goodwick, and I recall watching the boat train going out in the evenings. they were Castle hauled. I might only have been 6, but two previous summers spent at Dawlish Warren had drummed the various class characteristics of ex GWR tender locos into my brain. The Sunderland flying boat mentioned by Brian was owned by the Short Sunderland Trust, and I remember being allowed to crawl all the way through it, including up to the rear turret. It had obviously seen much better days, and was already showing signs of years of neglect and corrosion. Fortunately it's historical significance was recognised even back then and it was eventually dismantled and moved under cover. It survives today as part of the RAF Museum at Hendon, although today it is definitely look, but don't touch........so no chance of getting into the rear turret or up the staircase into the cockpit these days. Regards Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 6 years old and holidaying in Wdig, what an adventure. I was 5 and in St.Davids then doing similar. Holidaying that is. No trians there. They never arrived. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjnewitt Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 No need to apologise two tone green. It's all good stuff! Please carry on. West Wales is a lovely place. Pembrokeshire is beautifully unspoilt or at least seemed that way last time I went. Just out of interest where would the freights to West Wales have originated from around this time would it have been mainly Margam or did Llandillo still handle a lot of the traffic? I should have remembered about the Brush type 4s on inter regional traffic. I've seen a number of photos of South Wales Brush type 4s in far flung places on inter regional freight and passenger traffic. Also they became a fixture on North and West services from mid 1964. Seeing as the traffic has been mentioned alredy has anyone got any further information on the milk trains? I was going to save this but seeing as the thread is expanding I might as well do some expanding of my own. You mentioned Westerns on the milk trains Brian. You wouldn't happen to know whether these were Canton or Landore diagrams? Were the west bound empties also Western hauled? Were there engine changes on route as there had been in the days of steam or were they worked all the way? Any information on these as well as the Fishguard boat train would be great. Indeed any of the West Wales traffic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Thanks Justin, your thread was running away with itself in the wrong direction from your OP due to me. I will have to look in the book Carmarthen to Fishguard when I get home and see if there are any photos in there that may help. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjnewitt Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 Don't worry at all. I've changed the thread title so it can run wherever it wants to around West Wales now! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 We will have the bus brigade on here now with that title talking about Western Welsh and Richards Brothers bus services. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 We will have the bus brigade on here now with that title talking about Western Welsh and Richards Brothers bus services. Eynons of Trimsaran, with their wonderful fleet of ex LT double-deckers; they didn't replace their roller-blinds until they fell apart, so one went round with 'Finsbury Park' on it for ages. Good job they only had the one route.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Its a little known, well kept secret that Haverfordwset is a sub shed of Finsbury Park and that the 23rd Deltic called Red Rum is actually in store there. But keep it to yourself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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