edcayton Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I gather that by the 60's milk churn traffic had pretty well finished, so I'm assuming milk out (to London?) in tankers, butter and cheese in NPCCS vehicles. What would be a typical output from a small west country dairy in a day? At what time of day would loaded outbound trains leave, and also the inbound empties? Would the empties be left, and collected later when full, would the loco wait whilst they were loaded, or would a train of empties be swapped for a full train? What were the rail-borne road tanker trailers used for? All and any info gratefully received thanks Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 1, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 1, 2012 My railway career started in the mid '60s ('65 part time, '66 full time) but even observing milk trains on the Western for a good number of years before then suggested that milk train traffic consisted only of milk. Trains that I can recall conveyed no more than a single brakevan and that was there purely for the Guard as far as I have ever established. As far as I know processed product were dealt with in a completely different way although I think it conceivable (but can't confirm) that some probably passed as freight traffic in that era. Most of the WR empties went back countrywards in the afternoon and they seemed to come up in the evening/early part of the night - but that was observing near the London end. I'm not sure if I have any WTTs from that period but will try to look at some for the late 1940s as I doubt the times would have been much different Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 To add to what Mike said- the Up Milk from Carmarthen would leave there about 15:00 (it would pass our school, just west of Llanelli at closing time), being marshalled from the trip workings leaving the creameries about lunch-time. Typical feeder services would be between four and ten tanks, the whole train being about 20+ vehicles. The road-rail tanks would have served creameries which were not rail-connected- they'd have been loaded on to the wagons at the nearest station with an end-loading dock. As to whether the loco would stay with the empties whilst they were being loaded; they didn't at Carmarthen, but they may have done at other locations. I don't think the dairy would have been too keen to have soot, ash or diesel exhaust around the place, though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stuartp Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I can't speak for the West Country but traffic from Galloway creameries in the 1960s appears to have been mostly butter and cheese in 12t vanfits, with cream in churns being moved in the guards van between the various creameries depending on what they specialised in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 As far as I can tell, churn traffic ended in 1956 or 57 so by the 60s would have been tanker only. As The Stationmaster says, there would have been single passenger-rated brake vehicle for the guard. A wide variety of vehicles were used for this but they were usually older vehicles no longer used for front-line services. On the WR, Collett BGs (often K40s) were common in the early 60s changing to Hawksworth K45/46s in the later 60s. From 1968 onwards these vanished as the rules were changed to allow the Guard to travel in the rear cab of the loco. Return empties were often more varied with tankers sometimes lumped together with other miscellaneous NPCCS. With regards to output, the creameries at Moreton-in-the-Marsh and Green Grove both dispatched 2 or 3 tankers to London twice a day which equates to 12-18,000 gallons a day depending on the time of year. These are probably typical of a medium country creamery. The larger facility at Hemyock sent out 5-6 tanks in a single train although I have not been able to find out if this was once a day or more (I suspect it was twice). The Torridge vale dairies had a similar output (the torrington milk). There have been a couple of good threads on milk traffic which are well worth a read for both information and photos. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/47474-6-wheel-milk-tank-livery-brw-1960s-united-dairies/page__fromsearch__1 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/34792-milk-train-lengths-in-the-50s/page__fromsearch__1 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/29635-shunting-milk-train-at-bailey-gate-dairy/page__fromsearch__1 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/24358-1960s-milk-trains/page__fromsearch__1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Granted that it doesn't cover the 1960s but a very good overview of milk traffic working on the WR may be found in Trains Illustrated March 1959 in the form of R C Riley's article "Home with the milk". If you have trouble finding this, send me a PM. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffers Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Bailey Gate on the Somerset and Dorset sent 2 or 3 tanks a day. There is an excellent article on this milk traffic from Bailey Gate in the last issue of "The S&DRHT Telegraph" - the Somerset and Dorset Railway heritage Trust magazine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I have a journal entry for 3V36 2015 Shrewsbury-Kensington between Wolverhampton High Level and Banbury. This train was worked by Bescot footplate crew (at least on this occasion) who "passed" to the High Level to relieve it. The train ran across the Stour Valley, through New St then attached a vehicle at Exchange sidings, thence to Coventry to attach more. From Coventry, over the "branch", then via Leamington to Banbury for relief. From what Mikeh and I can gather, this train and it's corresponding empties to Birkenhead were diagrammed an NBL Warship but Brush and EE 4s were certainly not strangers to the job !!!! Unfortunately, I don't know which types of vehicles formed the train, but will dig the record out later Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Hi Phil, it would be fascinating to see the full record. Milk from the west country is well document but flows from Wales and the borders somewhat less so. I am guessing that this is the "Dorrington Milk". In steam days this usually ran into the IMS bottling plant at Marylebone but I have not been able to find out much about it in diesel days. If it was routed to Kensington, that might explain its disappearence. I wonder when the Marylebone plant stopped bottling? I guess the closure of the GCR meant the train no longer had a good route into the capital after the 60s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 There has been mention in another Forum, of a policy from the early 1960s, to concentrate all London and the South East's railborne milk supplies on to the West of England and West Wales, which might mean that the Dorrington service simply ceased to run. The source was someone who worked in the MMB's transport office. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I found something of interest in a 1961 WR carriage working programme whilst looking for something else, as is often the way. Something described as a "van (churns)" ran from Wootton Bassett to Taunton in the formation of the 5.5 am parcels from Paddington to Bristol, forward to Taunton by the 3.32 pm from Bristol. There was a "van (empty churns)" from Aylesbury to Chippenham which made part of its journey in the 10.40 pm Paddington to Penzance. There are other examples. Two possible explanations come to mind. The first is that churn traffic did not end in 1956/7. The second is that no-one bothered to update the carriage working programme to reflect reality. You choose! Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingJohn Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 As far as I can tell, churn traffic ended in 1956 or 57 so by the 60s would have been tanker only. As The Stationmaster says, there would have been single passenger-rated brake vehicle for the guard. A wide variety of vehicles were used for this but they were usually older vehicles no longer used for front-line services. On the WR, Collett BGs (often K40s) were common in the early 60s changing to Hawksworth K45/46s in the later 60s. From 1968 onwards these vanished as the rules were changed to allow the Guard to travel in the rear cab of the loco. Return empties were often more varied with tankers sometimes lumped together with other miscellaneous NPCCS. With regards to output, the creameries at Moreton-in-the-Marsh and Green Grove both dispatched 2 or 3 tankers to London twice a day which equates to 12-18,000 gallons a day depending on the time of year. These are probably typical of a medium country creamery. The larger facility at Hemyock sent out 5-6 tanks in a single train although I have not been able to find out if this was once a day or more (I suspect it was twice). The Torridge vale dairies had a similar output (the torrington milk). There have been a couple of good threads on milk traffic which are well worth a read for both information and photos. http://www.rmweb.co....__fromsearch__1 http://www.rmweb.co....__fromsearch__1 http://www.rmweb.co....__fromsearch__1 http://www.rmweb.co....__fromsearch__1 I have only seen 1 photo of milk traffic in the south west,at Newton Abbot, they all seem to be Silver from what I can see http://www.flickr.com/photos/21403537@N00/3603287318/ On previous threads, it was stated that about 350 tons was sent forward to London, which I think is 14 or 15 tankers. The photo only shows 4 or 5 plus a full break. Would tankers have been fed in at Newton Abbot? Also, was it only United Dairies tankers in use in this area? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 The train would have picked up further traffic at Exeter (from Hemyock and Torrington) and possibly also Highbridge (Bason Bridge traffic). As well as United Dairies/Unigate, the Milk Marketing Board and St Ivel/Express Dairies had creameries in the South-West. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I have only seen 1 photo of milk traffic in the south west,at Newton Abbot, they all seem to be Silver from what I can see http://www.flickr.co...N00/3603287318/ Yes, the majority of milk tankers were silver by this date (or more usually grime) but the odd example of other liveries could still be spotted from time to time, even into the blue diesel era. Here are a couple from the old site. On previous threads, it was stated that about 350 tons was sent forward to London, which I think is 14 or 15 tankers. The photo only shows 4 or 5 plus a full break. Would tankers have been fed in at Newton Abbot? Also, was it only United Dairies tankers in use in this area? Tanks were added on at various points during the journey. The Hemyock traffic would have joined at Tiverton junction. Wooton Basset in Wiltshire was another big producer IIRC. I think that milk tankers had been pooled by this period in time so you would probably have seen a mix of diagrams with the newer and more servicible vehicles generally being used regardless of who the owning dairy had been. Unigate was formed in 1959 from the merger of United Dairies and Cow & Gate. They were the main producer to run over WR metals although I do not think they were the only ones at this point in time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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