long island jack Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Thinking of getting one of bachmanns s4 in p&le livery can't seem to find a photo of the original anywhere does anyone have photo and a date for when this livery first appeared?? Ray from deepest west cumbria Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWB Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I've had the same thought, with the same results. The best I can say about the livery is that until the Penn Central bankruptcy in 1970, the P&LE followed New York Central and Penn Central corporate style, with minor variations (for instance, certain locos, including the 2-8-4s, were dark green instead of black, but other NYC subsidiaries were like this, too). Since the P&LE was leased by the NYC and the PC, once the PC went bankrupt, the P&LE was cut loose to operate on its own and developed its own graphic style, including the large lettering. So on one hand I would put the scheme at post-1970. However, during this time the P&LE was replacing its earlier switchers with SW1500s, so I would guess that the S4s didn't last all that long in this scheme. I would actually have preferred Bachmann do these very good locos in an earlier P&LE scheme if they were going to do one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
long island jack Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 Cheers Bachmann must have a photo from somewhere for this livery I agree they should have done the earlier paint scheme or even a PC black livery. Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWB Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 OK, you got me interested, and I went to the roster at http://thedieselshop.us/PLE.HTML which says 8662 was retired 6/68, so unless there's an error of some sort, this particular loco wouldn't have received the post-1970 livery. The roster also says all the S-4s were renumbered to PC -- but that assumes that an actual repainting took place in every case, which may not have happened. You'd have to start looking at some of the all-color books to get a clearer picture, if one is available. And if you were to repaint it to the NYC based scheme, would it have been dark green or black? Questions, questions. P&LE is sort of a hall of mirrors here. I'm very happy with my Santa Fe and WM S-4s, probably don't want to venture into this more squishy territory! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWB Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I did some more checking, and you can find several photos of PC ex-P&LE S4s at rrpicturearchives. net -- for instance at http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1328688 (I like this photo, because it's near where I grew up, a flat spot along the New Jersey Turnpike). As far as I can see, the P&LE Alcos were mostly transferred to PC ownership, not just relettered for P&LE/PC. During NYC, it appears that at least some got later NYC white sill stripes with NYC style lettering. However, it also occurs to me that NYC and NYC System renumbering for the PC merger took place through the mid-1960s, so any P&LE S4 numbered in the 8600 series after that time would be a major puzzle. The P&LE isn't all that popular as a prototype over here -- overshadowed by its connections, I guess, and I'm interested that as far as I know, none of the nitpickers on some of our forums have raised this question. But right now, I see a lot of reason to doubt the number in the paint scheme on the model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWB Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 So OK, as I would have predicted, the P&LE Alco switchers would have been renumbered to the 9700 series several years prior to the PC merger to match the overall PC numbering scheme. Here's a shot from 1966: http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/ple/ple9735s.jpg New number, old scheme (dark green or black? Who knows?) As far as I can see right now, the Bachmann scheme is the-thing-which-is-not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWB Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 So aha, I asked above why nobody started nitpicking the P&LE S-4 on certain US sites, and then I decided to do a Google search on something like Bachmann wrong criminal stupid disgusting P&LE S-4, what what do you know, but I came up with http://forum.atlasrr...?TOPIC_ID=68650 saying just the things I expected at the forum where I expected to find it! Elementary, my dear Watson! The poster says the scheme was taken from a Howard Fogg postcard, which may have been this one: http://coalingstatio...m/images/36.jpg My guess is that the loco was so small in the painting that Barriger (P&LE President at the time, who commissioned the paintings) told Fogg to make the road name/initials big enough for viewers to say it's a P&LE. And it wouldn't surprise me at all if the post-1970 scheme was inspired by this or a similar postcard painting. For all the Bachmann bashing in that thread, it's a good loco and a bargain, which some folks will never acknowledge -- but again, I'd have popped US$50 for a P&LE in correct 1950s lettering. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
long island jack Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 Thanks for all your hard work Its strange that bachman picked this livery,the NYC (P&LE) or PC liverys would have been a better choice for them sales wise But hey! what do i know, obviously bachman must have done there research,and thought the were on a winner The S4 looks like a good model,may still by one and make it into my own fictitious shortline- Pottsville & Lewistown Eastern!! Once again thanks very much Ray from deepest west cumbria Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 The P&LE seems to be particularly difficult to research, online at least. I've found a basic steam roster, but it only links (and not hyperlinks) to the equivalent NYC loco types. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunshine coast Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Thanks for all your hard work Its strange that bachman picked this livery,the NYC (P&LE) or PC liverys would have been a better choice for them sales wise But hey! what do i know, obviously bachman must have done there research,and thought the were on a winner The S4 looks like a good model,may still by one and make it into my own fictitious shortline- Pottsville & Lewistown Eastern!! Once again thanks very much Ray from deepest west cumbria Did have the Santa Fe sound version in the shop ...ran very smoothly for a short while on my test track.........then it got bought !!! ...only lasted 30 mins from unpacking to going back out the door ....... so have to wait for some more to come in to check out properly ..but did seem to respond well on DCC . Regards Trevor ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWB Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 They are very, very sweet little engines. Some guys comment that sound will drive you up the wall after two minutes or so, and the non-sound versions at discount are quite inexpensive for the value. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mah644 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 The P & LE, together with the Michigan Central, the Boston and Albany and a few others, was a New York Central "captive" line. They were separate identities, but used NYC pattern locomotives and rolling stock lettered for the "captive" line. I can venture no good answer as to why the apparently wrong paintjob was used (I have not done my own research on this). Best Wishes--Carl Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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