Guest Max Stafford Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Hope. If there's one thing that's in chronically short supply in Britain under the present system it's that. For both the employed and the unemployed. The ideological locomotive that drives the country is running ever more roughly and is long overdue for a heavy overhaul and perhaps even withdrawal. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohmisterporter Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I may have mentioned this elsewhere but a couple of years ago the local paper ran a report from the magistrates court regarding a young woman accused of shoplifting. In her defence her solicitor said her client was "Actively thinking about the possibility of looking for a job". Much mirth in the courtroom. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium skipepsi Posted February 13, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 13, 2012 I may have mentioned this elsewhere but a couple of years ago the local paper ran a report from the magistrates court regarding a young woman accused of shoplifting. In her defence her solicitor said her client was "Actively thinking about the possibility of looking for a job". Much mirth in the courtroom. Damned with faint praise springs to mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 we have the highest percentage of people in Europe on sickness/ill-health related benefits. Clearly, on the basis of statistics alone, the system is either being abused or we have an incredibly 'sick' population - which hardly accords with what I see in the street. Again - like some other parts of the benefit system - I think it might all have become too easy. We also rank pretty high in the longest working hours, shortest holidays, highest cost of living tables as well. Maybe there's a corelation. As to what you see on the streets, not everyone unfit to work is visibly disabled. if you saw me out you might well think there's nothing wrong with me. Indeed you would probablty be right. On all the days when I can't go out you won't see me. In my view the criteria should be simple - is the person fit enough to work, albeit not to do every kind of work, and are they fit enough to be able to get to & from a place of work, albeit with possibly some kind of travel assistance. It doesn't matter what the work is - the relevant words should be 'fit to work'. And what do you think the criteria are now? You would be amazed at what consitutes 'fit for work' in the minds of those assessing eligibility for ESA. You don't even need to be fit enough to get there, just able to move 200 metres in a wheelchair and manage to get up two steps. If you can raise your arm above your head you are fit for work. The bizarre thing is that ESA includes the provision for claimants to be able to work up to 16 hours a week in approved employment, yet the assessment views even the slightest hint of anyrthing short of complete immobility as grounds for ineligibility. I must say that either your doctor was very unfamiliar with how the system works or has delusions of his own abilities if he thought that he could get you on ESA single handed. I had reports from my GP and three different specialists all supporting my claim but I was still found fit for work by the ATOS examiner. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I had reports from my GP and three different specialists all supporting my claim but I was still found fit for work by the ATOS examiner. ATOS get paid for each assessment they do, and also paid a bonus for each they reject. Lots of reports of them rejecting people who shouldn't of been, and tribunals overturning it. The whole system is flawed really and geared firmly against being fair and against the claimant at every stage. I'm just glad I'm not on ESA, as it'd be hell for me I'm pretty sure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium NGT6 1315 Posted February 13, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 13, 2012 A crap job it may be, but if I had the choice, I'd feel better doing that than hanging about waiting for a state handout. Unfortunately, I think that viewpoint is abused by cynical employers and a government who's basic ideology is dictated by faceless people in The City. This might be a suitable follow-up to what you wrote, Dave... I personally am having the impression that, at least over here, one item which is neglected by the entire jobseeking system is taking long-term goals into account - assuming that it should be the ultimate goal to get a person back into a position where they can apply their skills to their fullest. What I mean by that is that I am worried that having a string of cr*ppy or incoherent jobs on your CV due to official jobseeking requirements may rather disqualify an applicant in the eyes of employers where they might normally have a go at a decent job, matching their abilities and qualifications and providing an income sufficient to not have to feast on scraps. In other words, I could imagine that prejudices against "lowly" jobs are, in practice, just as hard to expunge in HR departments as they are in the general population, where I do have the impression that too many people still are too easily blinded by pompous position titles and other such miscellanies. Of course, this would, in the end, constitute a general problem of lacking common sense in the population, which essentially only proper and reasoned information may help remedy over time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The ideological locomotive that drives the country is running ever more roughly and is long overdue for a heavy overhaul and perhaps even withdrawal. Using the past tense of the verb 'to drive' is more accurate... that loco has been derailing for more than forty years despite gvts of two different colours who seem at best hellbent at unravelling what their predeccssors acheived, and at the worst to render what was in place more complex - the consequence is that a top-down belligerent attitude prevails... dilbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 13, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 13, 2012 We also rank pretty high in the longest working hours, shortest holidays, highest cost of living tables as well. Maybe there's a corelation. As to what you see on the streets, not everyone unfit to work is visibly disabled. if you saw me out you might well think there's nothing wrong with me. Indeed you would probablty be right. On all the days when I can't go out you won't see me. I don't really think that 5 weeks statutory minimum in holidays (assuming a 5 day week, as for most working people) is too bad - many of us spent years with no more than 2 weeks' annual leave - and according to one source our statutory minimum for annual leave is no different from Germany and several other western European countries. The thing which makes a big difference is the number of public holidays where we tend to be very sparse compared with most other countries - working with the French, Belgians and Germans for a several years left me very much with the impression that some of them spent more time on public holidays and saints' days than they did at work, especially the French. But to be honest I don't see what this or long hours etc has to do with ill health benefits - overall the payment of those has increased as statutory holidays have increased and the average working week has reduced and in any case - injuries apart - most work related illness that I have ever come across tends to be relatively short duration. And what do you think the criteria are now? You would be amazed at what consitutes 'fit for work' in the minds of those assessing eligibility for ESA. You don't even need to be fit enough to get there, just able to move 200 metres in a wheelchair and manage to get up two steps. If you can raise your arm above your head you are fit for work. The bizarre thing is that ESA includes the provision for claimants to be able to work up to 16 hours a week in approved employment, yet the assessment views even the slightest hint of anyrthing short of complete immobility as grounds for ineligibility. I must say that either your doctor was very unfamiliar with how the system works or has delusions of his own abilities if he thought that he could get you on ESA single handed. I had reports from my GP and three different specialists all supporting my claim but I was still found fit for work by the ATOS examiner. I have heard that they have bizarre criteria as you say but in the end the situation surely has to be that a person is either capable of working or they are not? Clearly, as was the case with my long term employer, you can say that certain levels of fitness mean that you can only do certain types of work - for instance a chap I worked with took redundancy a year or so after suffering a heart attack, and set himself up as a jobbing gardener - he'd had a heart attack but still wanted to work. Similarly with me - I'm quite sure, as things were at that time, that my GP could have got me onto a state ill-health benefit but I didn't want it, I wanted to work as and when I got the chance so I did, albeit on medically restricted hours and medication intended to stop me dropping dead (and as & when there was suitable work for me through a new employer after I left full-time work); I certainly wouldn't qualify under today's regulations, nor should I. And yes I had seen others go onto Ill Health benefits back in the 1990s - plenty of them, before things started to be tightened up by either our pension fund or the state. I do find it bizarre - in the extreme - that someone should be considered able to work if they are unable to get to a workplace. Clearly people have to be mobile in order to work (but then we still see Frank Gardner on the BBC news and he's in a wheelchair and apparently unable to move very far when out of it) so there might be some sense in the 200 metres ruling even tho' it seems an odd figure. Obviously far more sensible to consider each case as it comes but surely you must have some basic criteria - if someone can move about, think, and use their hands then they can work. My father lost half of his left hand in a work accident but he carried on working in his trade (carpenter & joiner) for another 30 years until well past state retirement age, partly because he couldn't stand being idle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 13, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 13, 2012 Using the past tense of the verb 'to drive' is more accurate... that loco has been derailing for more than forty years despite gvts of two different colours who seem at best hellbent at unravelling what their predeccssors acheived, and at the worst to render what was in place more complex - the consequence is that a top-down belligerent attitude prevails... dilbert And, I think, not just that but an increasing sense of unjustness among the 'middle earners' (in particular and from what I hear) about ever increasing taxes for which they believe they receive no tangible benefit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 working with the French, Belgians and Germans for a several years left me very much with the impression that some of them spent more time on public holidays and saints' days than they did at work, especially the French. Non môssieur - zis is an impression that needs to be corrected. Whilst the French do appear to have more public holidays, in reality this is not the case (I don't whether this applies to the other EU countries). The difference : there are two French public holidays that fall on a fixed day in the week - Easter Monday and IIRC the other is Pentecost. When public holidays occur during a weekend, there is no day off in 'lieu' (or in the loo as Brits would pronounce it) apart from those that choose to work these days). It can be annoying ! 2012 is a good year for public holidays here - it balances out in the end... dilbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 13, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 13, 2012 Non môssieur - zis is an impression that needs to be corrected. Whilst the French do appear to have more public holidays, in reality this is not the case (I don't whether this applies to the other EU countries). The difference : there are two French public holidays that fall on a fixed day in the week - Easter Monday and IIRC the other is Pentecost. When public holidays occur during a weekend, there is no day off in 'lieu' (or in the loo as Brits would pronounce it) apart from those that choose to work these days). It can be annoying ! 2012 is a good year for public holidays here - it balances out in the end... dilbert Mind you SNCF do it a bit differently (yes, I know their management style is a national joke in French management consulting circles let alone elsewhere, but). First thing if there is a holiday falling on a Tuesday or a Thursday they get something called a 'Bridge Day' to link it to the weekend and make 4 days off. And also SNCF (or maybe it was just the ones I knew?) took an adjacent weekday off if a holiday - other than Easter Sunday) fell on a Sunday. But on the other side of the coin Christmas for them only meant two days off (unless Bridge Days were involved) not the sort of 10 day shut-down which often seems to happen here nowadays (on BR we had some annual leave days which specifically had to be taken between Christmas and New Year). Add to that an extra month's pay every December, plus some good staff restaurants and a free flat in a nice part of Paris for Paris based senior managers, and SNCF certainly had a lot going for (unless you happen to be a French taxpayer). Sorry to wander OT Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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